[AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

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[AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

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SPOILER WARNING!
Anor Noban - PunisherArchemide - CruorAsuka Rossi - GriffinAuric Fulcrum - Federation Navy CometDrault Sarn - CondorErgan Eto - MerlinGrygr Anzomi - TristanKaluma Asanari - MerlinKordun Naskingar - RifterKy Hanomaa - GriffinLeech Locke - KestrelLexi Dignity - AtronMandapochefe Venture - TristanPest Hibra - MerlinYto Itinen - MerlinZ0X Ambrye - Garmur, Federation Navy Cometmanda doomsslayer - Kestrel

Couldn't think of a fitting title for this one. It was an all around "ok" fleet.

Kills and Losses

(18:37:57) Covryn
Federation Navy Comet +23.15m
Capsule +0.01m

Z0x grabbed a Comet while we were still docked up. I'm counting that one!

(18:44:15) Dastryns
Griffin -0.98m

We found a non-flashy Badger autopiloting through Dastryns and I called everyone to ignore him. Someone engaged him anyway and I called for the Fleet to bump him off the gate but not fire at him. We got him, but lost one of the people who aggressed him against my orders.

(18:57:21) Frarie
Griffin +0.25m

Found an empty Griffin at a small, waited for everyone to get on the kill, blapped him. Standard procedure.

(19:06:58) Aubenall
Atron -3.02m

A flashy Praxis landed on us at the gate. I called for a few people to jump and tackle him if he jumps thorugh, the rest engaged on this side. He started shooting us back, got everyone back in system and started blapping him. After losing someone to his drones, target was switched to those.
We were breaking him slowly when an Omen Navy of the same alliance landed on the gate and I called scatter.

We tried to engage 3 Retributions at a small soon after, but they were 50 off the acceleration gate so I called for everyone to slide and sit inside. The same flashy Praxis was landing on us as we slid in and someone stayed outside to give intel. He had to slide quickly after the Praxis landed as it was locked him extremely quickly and was fit with small lasers as it turns out (this was when I decided to completely disregard engaging the Praxis in the future as it was basically made to kill frigates).

After jumping through a flashy Gnosis and ONI, we docked up in Nennamaila as there were a bunch of flashy Typhoons, T3Ds and the guys we just engaged roaming about in system. After taking a small break, most of them seemed to have moved on and we continued our roam.

(19:24:00) Aldranette, Nennamaila
Kestrel -7.82m
Condor -2.9m

I don't quite remember how those happened, Kestrel most likely got instalocked and blapped on a gate in Aldranette, Condor was likely lost while trying to engage something or on the undock of the station we were in.

(19:52:51) Nisuwa
Incursus +12.85m
Capsule +0.01m

We had a non-flashy Incursus play with us on a gate. He then proceeded to engage said gate and jumped through. Jumped in after him and we managed to get him, despite the guy being 90km off the gate by the time we jumped in (Garmur point range is insane). Got everyone on the kill and farmed some salt with our Griffins

(19:58:11) Tama
Atron -2.17m
Merlin -3.78m

We lost our Scout and Vanguard to a Frigate gang sitting outside a Small. I told the fleet to slide and hoped we could get them to engage on us. Sadly we didn't get a fight and decided to move on after waiting around a bit and trying to get some other content in Tama.

(20:16:48) Okkamon
Tristan -10.46m

Scout found a Jaguar outside a small and engaged it. Got 2 Carriers dropped on him and died soon after as he was scrammed by the Jaguar.

(20:24:18) Asakai
Garmur -78.65m
(20:24:33) Okkamon
Cruor -55.03m

These 2 were completely my fault. I (for some some reason) decided to tell the fleet to align to the same small we just lost a scout in while another one was looking to engage a Comet in the next system. Fleet warped to the small, we immediately scattered because, of course, the carriers came back. Meanwhile our scout died while fighting the Comet. I'm very sorry about both of those losses, they were completely avoidable.

(21:09:44) Eha
Griffin -0.98m
Merlin -5.19m
Merlin +8.08m
Merlin -3.37m
Merlin +11.84m
Griffin -0.79m
Kestrel -7.07m
Atron +14.2m
Rifter -3.13m
Tristan -0.56m
Federation Navy Comet -20.13m
Tristan -8.62m
Kestrel -0.57m

I got convo'd by the FC of the T3D gang and he asked if we wanted to fight them after they've reshipped into T1 frigates. I was more than happy to and so we got to engage a small fleet from Holy Cookie with our own. It was a new and very fun experience for me and a good fight was had. They ended up having a lot of kitey tristans which made enaging them impossible after a certain point and I called scatter with very few of us left, which also marked the end of the fleet.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 70,954,345.91
ISK Lost: 215,225,255.63
ISK Delta: -144,270,909.72
Efficiency: 24.794%

Overall evaluation
(Positive stuff)
- Got my first taste of FC'ing actual Fleet vs Fleet PvP
- Formup and fleet movement went well
- Might get more fights with Holy Cookie in the future
(Negative stuff)
- Fleet fight was a bit of a mess, need to make quicker and better decisions
- Don't split the attention of the fleet. If we're waiting for a scout to tackle something, we shouldn't be engaging somewhere else.
- Don't take obvious bait that you just lost someone to if you know that you 100% can't take it (what was I even thinking?)
- I need to be more assertive and keep comms disciplined. Need to reprimand people who go against my orders.
- Didn't engage things we might have been able to take. Again.
Edit:
- work on communicating more clearly what I want the fleet/scout to be doing
- need to practice target calling in fleet fights
Last edited by Auric Fulcrum on 2019.02.12 11:47, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

Thanks again for beign our FC! It's often a thankless job, but we appreciate the effort it goes into organizing and commanding a fleet.
As for mistakes, it's better to learn on a T1 frigate than in anything more pricey. Don't be too hard on yourself, it's a learning experience after all.

What I personally learned from this fleet, especially the last fight, was to reset my overview to hide drones when against frigates.
I had that on from when we engaged the Praxis and at the last fight with the Tristans my screen got really crowded. Glad I made it alive
through that.
The fight was a bit one sided because we had to assault their plex while they had already optimal and knew our mainline Merlin fit, so they obviously
were in a kiting fit to counter us. Maybe we need to promote the fight club more, so people get an idea of how a fight like this goes.

We got our lessons and next time will do better!

o/

Member

Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

For a reasonably new FC you did really well (I didn't realise how new you were ), and perhaps most importantly lead a very enjoyable fleet. FCing is not easy, I used to describe it as playing 3D chess in your head with the added bonus of not being able to see all the pieces, but staying at it can lead to some really rewarding experiences.

As to the actual fleet:

Auric Fulcrum wrote:- Fleet fight was a bit of a mess, need to make quicker and better decisions

I don't think it was really a mess and honestly didn't have a concern with how you FC'ed it. I think here was more just where your inexperience shows though a bit in that your target calling itself needs some refinement. The basics of being explicit and saying "Guys lock up a, b, c and d. Primary is a, secondary is b" with corresponding broadcasts. While not particularly important in a fight like that, it is a good habit to get into and becomes crucial as fleet sizes, and engagement sizes increase. Trying to find "x" on the overview with 50+ hostiles on grid leads to a lot of time lost which could have been applied DPS by a fleet member, as opposed to them just Ctrl clicking in the fleet window. Again, while not important in this fight, having the fleet members lock up as many of your likely next targets as possible is important for a couple of reasons. 1, it allows you to more quickly switch the fleets DPS from one target to another. 2, means it is more likely that points have been spread on your likely next victims. 3, perhaps the most important reason, it makes the opposing fleet's logi's job (assuming they have it, I know here they didn't) a lot more difficult as it is harder to predict who the next DPS primary will be.

Auric Fulcrum wrote:- Don't split the attention of the fleet. If we're waiting for a scout to tackle something, we shouldn't be engaging somewhere else.

So this goes back to the 3D chess thing, and a bit on fleet control (more on this lower down). It is often actually necessary to have multiple things going on at the same time. The important thing is staying on top of what is happening yourself, as that was the failure here, not having multiple things happening. It is often the case, that while a scout is trying to get a potential fight, something else happens somewhere else, the key then is to assess your options and convey the choice you have made to everyone in fleet. Thus, using this case as an example, if the scout is not yet actually engaged, they can extract from that situation while the fleet pounces on the other opportunity. Or if the scout is engaged, then as the FC you need to assess if you should take the fleet in as planned, or if the potential loss of the scout is outweighed by the strategic value of not engaging the original plan.

Auric Fulcrum wrote:- I need to be more assertive and keep comms disciplined. Need to reprimand people who go against my orders.

So I saw this in the AAR for another fleet I joined in on and frankly I disagree on both accounts. IMO, the comms were not undisciplined, and instead quite nicely balanced being social while also still allowing for effective communication. It is also important to allow for an environment where fleet members do feel like they can bring to your attention something, because frankly sometimes as an FC you miss something, or as a new FC just don't realise something. "Suggestions" from fleet members saved my arse more time than I can count. It may sometimes be necessary to remind people that they may make only suggestions, and should never attempt to give an order over an FC (unless having the delegated authority to do that, such as Logi Commanders, Scout/Vanguard Commanders,in which it is limited to those positions) . That all being said, I do agree you could perhaps be a little more assertive (not to much though) and also enforce combat comms a little earlier than you do. Saying, "Fleet this is what we are doing" or after a suggestion giving an order either inline with the suggestion or not, so that other members know what you want them to do. Fleet control makes or breaks fleets, so it is always important as an FC to ensure there is as little ambiguity as possible in the fleets understanding of what you want, but also keeping a conversation going while doing that.

Auric Fulcrum wrote:- Didn't engage things we might have been able to take. Again.

This purely comes from experience and ship knowledge. (I am actually having to play catch-up here because while I was AFK, CCP decided to add a bunch of new ships and modules and completely change the meta... )

To FC effectively you do need to have knowledge of what ships do, how they are likely fit, what the current tactics are etc. Have a look at Reddit (I know it can be cancer but in between the sh*tposts and propoganda can ussually be some interesting insights into what is happening in New Eden), Zkillboard, the Eve-O Forums, and just generally try pay attention to things in Eve to stay up with the Meta. Play around with Pyfa (a lot) so that you become acquainted with how ship fitting works and the likely fits for different ships. Ask people (who seems to reasonably know fitting) why ships where fit they way they were and try making some of your own doctrines. As always, Knowledge is Power, so try and gooble up as much of it as you can.

My last final suggestion would be to ditch the Kitchen Sink... I get that it is probably in an effort to make the fleet as accessible as possible so as to try and increase fleet numbers, but the downsides are just to great. I know this is probably become rather repetitive though this admittedly now rather lengthy post, but FCing requires being able to process information as quickly as possible, and a Kitchen sink fleet doesn't even give you the information to try and process. Having a kitchen sink means you don't know how you will do against a kiting set-up, or if you have enough DPS to break ship x's tank. Having a doctrine gives you more accurate information with which to make decisions, and as a bonus means you don't end up with any killmails with really questionable fits like some of the ones above.
ALL IS WELL IN THE END, IF ALL'S NOT WELL ITS NOT THE END

Former NSC Manager| Teacher | Uni Nomad | Chill-Towner | Penguin

Member

Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

Thank you very much for the incredible amount of feedback Grygr (and thank you too Yto)! There are a lot of good points in there and lots of things I will try to implement in my next fleets.
I'm usually pretty hard on myself and sometimes draw the wrong conclusions from screwups (like with the engagement on the bait while having the scout in the next system or how comms were) so you disagreeing with some things I perceived to have done wrong is making me really happy

Member

Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 10Feb19

Ty for the fleet again, was really fun! Btw little hint: the Griffin could have refitted correct jammers for the Tristan fleet, they were asking for it in the plex. I got blapped because i lagged badly but the missed jams on the primary still gives me nightmares lol ( the others were on target)