[AAR] Thursday Things 2/8

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Archemide

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Post 2019.02.11 02:24

[AAR] Thursday Things 2/8

Roam members (27)
SPOILER WARNING!
Analiese Aubernet
Archemide - Bellicose
Atticus Vex
Christoph Patrouette
Conci Furiram - Hyena
Cpn Reynolds
CyberBlackEagle - Caracal
Drault Sarn
Durnik Risalo
Ergan Eto - Caracal
Etra Ellecon - Caracal
Fogsworth
Gemma Solett
Indy Indy - Sabre
Ithugor Wells
KPYTOE KOPOBO
Karaliene Andras
Kirsid Tannaway - Scythe
Ky Hanomaa
Max Duckman
Neemo Beer
Penelore - Bellicose
Satoshi Tomeii
Staberinde
Xyrin Bacard
Z0X Ambrye - Stiletto
Zako Maken - Scythe


Kills and Losses

This week (and for all Thursdays going forward for a while), we're going to be testing out new doctrines on Thursday Things. I'll be putting my summary of the doctrine in a post below. I'll also do a separate analysis of the doctrine below. The OP is mostly just going to be about the calls made on the fleet. So, part of our prep was running the fleet against a NPC Miner Response fleet. That was our first engagement.

(01:29:53) PC9-AY
Imicus +1.95m
Capsule +0.01m

Indy was coming from PC9, and managed to pick this guy off before he met up with us. L33T PvP right here.

So we found a group of Thukker Miners. Bubbles went up, and I broadcast some targets. The first thing I realized was that, while broadcasting targets is useful in PvP, in PvE it's pretty much worthless. All the rats have the same name. So, I quickly tagged up a couple of the miners, and had the fleet shoot miners 1 2 and 3. I also never called 'drones out' and completely forgot to use mine. This is something I need to get in the habit of calling when a fight starts that we're going to stick around for. I'm also pretty terrible about guessing how many prop mod cycles to use. Instead of guessing how many cycles (this fight I called 2 and used 3), I should just say prop mods on and prop mods off.

I also had an idea that Bellicoses would shoot the main target, and Caracals would shoot tackle. I figured "eh, calling 2 targets can't possible be that hard, can it?" This engagement showed that I can't do that. I'll get more into what changes I'd like to make to compensate for that below, in doctrine analysis.

But, hey. We cleared the response fleet without losing a single person. Only like 10 NPCs to our 26 people, but it was still good practice. It's a nice warm-up for the fleet, I think. Let me know if you guys did or didn't like hunting a response fleet.

We were lucky enough to get a direct Null-Null wormhole connection, and we took that into Cloud Ring.

We also had a couple of ex-Uni's on this fleet. Shortly after we got to null, they got called away to an op of their own. They were also filling some of the more special roles. We lost (iirc) 1 logi, 1 scout, and 2 DD. Then, our bubbler ran into connection issues. Another snowflake lost. Not a lot I can do about this as an FC, but less snowflakes means less options.

Local called that a fight was coming. I had our Hyena burn us a couple of tacticals (see? I'm learning!). We hung out there while our scout got eyes on what they were bringing. I also (intentionally) put us on a gate that was not the way home. That way, if we had to retreat home, we weren't on the gate we had to retreat to.

Scout called Drakes, Ospreys, Osprey Navies, and Caracals. They had bigger ships, we had bigger numbers. I figured it was a pretty fair fight. They came into system (about 10 of them). I warped us down to the gate, at range. Then they came in on a tac. Then local spiked again. Assault frigs started landing on the gate. I warped us back to the tactical (40 ish neuts now). Luckily, everyone got off.

They had 30ish assualt frigs/T2 logi. Not a fight we wanted. I assumed this was an overescalation by the enemy. I had us clear our route, and planned to retreat. Someone more observant than I pointed out that it was 2 different alliances. There was a bit of a standoff, then the AFs left. I had our scout confirm that they were really gone, and not just hiding in the next system, waiting for us to fight. The wangs (drake/caracal/osprey group)'s sabre warped off right here. I thought it was odd but didn't really process it. Bigger ships to pop. He probably had something else to do.

Wangs currently had 1 Malediction, 4 Ospreys, 2 ONIs, and 5 Drakes. We had 22 in fleet. Maybe not an even fight, but one I thought we could definitely trade in. I warped us in right as they started warping. All of their ships came in at the same range. Naturally, I went for the Ospreys. They were ~70km off of us. I called prop mods on (for the wrong amount of time. Again). Some silly people (myself included) started painting our primary before we got into missile range. He started burning away. I had us lock up a second Osprey. (Should've really just called to lock up all the Ospreys. The goal is to break their logi first, after all).

Once we were in range of the second Osprey, I called everyone to swap primary to that Osprey. Also, I (again) forgot to call drones out. We were actually doing pretty good dps; he was in 1/4 shield before thjey started getting reps on him. Oh, and then the Drakes started smartbombing the drones. After that, we really couldn't break them. One of our Scythes got popped, and another was burning off way away from the fleet. If we couldn't break their logi on a logi ship, we certainly weren't going to go through one of their dps ships. I fleet warped us to a tactical (finally learning from my AARs) as I died.

Drault (2IC) had us warp to the gate home. Remember that Sabre that disappeared earlier? I didn't realize what they had done until I was watching this video. They saw our scout check our way out, when we thought we were being overescalated. Then, they sent their sabre to that gate to be ready to bubble it up when we left. Clever trick. We all landed in their bubble. We lost another couple to that.

Something else of note: there was a bit of chatting in local. I made sure that someone besides me did all of the talking, so they wouldn't know who our FC was. I didn't want to get headshot. However, in local they apologized for headshotting. They said they were trying to avoid it. I imagine some groups headshot, and others avoid it so it's a gf. Is obfuscating the FC generally a good call?

(03:09:12) 8R-RTB
Scythe -25.76m
Caracal -37.87m
Bellicose -31.19m
Scythe -20.91m
Caracal -37.9m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

After that, we got back to PC9. It was still early into the fleet, so I the couple people who died reship, and we took a short bio. We also got a new bubbler (yay!)

(03:26:27) PC9-AY
Capsule -0.01m

(03:34:24) JH-M2W
Coercer +12.91m

We had a couple Coercers poking around PC9 when we got back. One of them picked off a pod that landed in our bubble. We chased them down and managed to catch one of them in a bubble. We did a bit of jumping back and forth on gates, but we managed to pick him off.

Then, we went poking down to VV- gate. No content to be found.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 14,860,890.37
ISK Lost: 153,667,128.1
ISK Delta: -138,806,237.73
Efficiency: 8.818%
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Archemide

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Post 2019.02.11 02:24

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 2/8

Doctrine writeup:
Archemide wrote:Formup: February 8th, 0200 Eve Time
Undocking from: Stacmon V - Moon 9 - Federation Navy Assembly Plant
Duration: Roughly 3 hours
Destination: NullSec

So, the deployment has come to a close. We now return to our normal stomping grounds. That means that the Null-Sec Wormhole Bounty Program once again applies to this fleet. Find me a wormhole chain going to sovnull in or near the PC9 pocket, and you can get 50 mil.

If you're new to the Uni, or to Null-Sec, feel free to come out and try out NSC combat. I do recommend you've been on at least 1 fleet before, or gone to a Fleets 101 class. If you haven't, you're still welcome to come out. However, we will be moving faster than a Noobs on Patrol fleet.

"Wait, FC, you said PC9, but undock says Stacmon. And you didn't list a doctrine!" Thursday Things is now going to be testing out experimental doctrines. Meaning, it's going to be critical to read this whole post before you go on fleet. These posts will show up on the weekend (no more last minute doctrine posts, promise). However, we will be leaving out of Stacmon because it has a better market. Additionally, Ged Sinak has volunteered to put up some contracts. Contract supply is limited, so you may end up having to buy the ships off of market. We will still be going to sovnull/Syndicate for our content.

Also, before we enter our wormhole/go seriously looking for content, we're going to find a NPC miner fleet. "What, ratting?" For those of you who don't know, shooting NPC miners brings in a response fleet. That response fleet acts like a real PvP fleet, with logi and all. It's a good opportunity to take 10 min at the start of the fleet to warm up and make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to do.

Finally, onto the doctrine.

The Bellicose

T2 Bellicose:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Bellicose, Heavy Belly T2]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Target Painter II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Acolyte II x3
Hobgoblin II x5


Inferno Fury Heavy Missile x500
Inferno Precision Heavy Missile x500
Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile x500
Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile x500
Nova Fury Heavy Missile x500
Nova Precision Heavy Missile x500
Scourge Fury Heavy Missile x500
Scourge Precision Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile x500
Nanite Repair Paste x100

T1 Bellicose:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Bellicose, Heavy Belly T1]

IFFA Compact Damage Control
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System

Phased Scoped Target Painter
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Large Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
Astro-Inertial Compact Missile Guidance Computer, Missile Precision Script
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Acolyte I x3
Hobgoblin I x5


Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x100


The Bellicose makes up the core of the Damage Dealers. It has the same bonus to damage that the Caracal does, but no range bonus. Heavy missiles give it a range bonus, when compared to Light Missiles, and the target painters help that damage apply. "So, FC, what do?" These fly very similarly to BLAP Caracals. Stay with the anchor, paint and shoot the primary. If we get tons of people, I may some of the Bellicoses paint tackle. TBD.

Ammo: Load the damage type the FC calls. If you're in a T2 ship: Fury is your main ammo type. Faction is for when the fleet is on the defensive (when we're using defensive bubbles and the range bonus really counts). Precision is for assault frigate gangs.

The Caracal

T2 Caracal:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Caracal, Rapid Carry T2]

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x2


Inferno Fury Light Missile x500
Mjolnir Fury Light Missile x500
Nova Fury Light Missile x500
Scourge Fury Light Missile x500
Navy Cap Booster 400 x10
Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile x500
Nanite Repair Paste x100

T1 Caracal:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Caracal, Rapid Carry T1]

IFFA Compact Damage Control
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System

Large Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Faint Scoped Warp Disruptor

Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x2


Navy Cap Booster 400 x10
Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x100


"Wait.....that's not a BLAP Caracal!" One of the frustrations of BLAP Caracals is that 100% of the tackle comes from snowflakes. If they die, suddenly you can't keep anything around to kill it. This doctrine doesn't have that problem. In a fleet fight, itsjob is to stay at ~15-20km from the enemy fleet. They keep point on the enemy, and use their rapid light missiles to shoot the enemy tackle. Once enemy tackle is cleared, or if the FC calls, you shoot the primary. When the fleet is on the defense, however, this flies just like BLAP Caracals. You shoot the primary, along with everyone else. It also features a capacitor booster, to make sure it always has enough cap to use the MWD.

Ammo: If you're shooting tackle, use the appropriate ammo to shoot that resist hole. If you don't know what that is, use the ammo that is called for the Bellicoses. It (hopefully) should hit a similar hole. If you're shooting the primary: Use the ammo that is called. T2 Ammo: When ganking/fleet fighting, use Fury. When the fleet is on the defense, load faction ammo for the range bonus.

The Logi

SPOILER WARNING!
[Scythe, Nano - Logi (Pair)]

Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Medium Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Medium Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Medium S95a Scoped Remote Shield Booster

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x1
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I x4


Nanite Repair Paste x50


Shamelessly stolen from the WHC Light Shield doctrine. It's fast, and cap stable with all three reps active. Generally, they will be flying near the Bellicoses, so that the Caracals are still in your optimal. Remember your drones, they do work. Otherwise, they fly like normal logi.

The Snowflakes

A bubbler is critical. The fleet will not undock without one. Sabre preferred, Flycatcher works, armor bubblers are suboptimal.
Interceptors serve as scouts, as usual. Assault/T1 frigs can also serve this role, but are suboptimal at it.
A Hyena is the next best snowflake for this fleet. Webs will help us kite, and multiply our damage. No paints required on a Hyena, since we have one on every Bellicose.
A Bifrost gives us links, which makes everyone stronger. They also allow for booshing, which is a nice tactical option.
And finally a tactical destroyer gives us combat/normal probes. They're great for tracking people down at safes, or scanning out a wormhole when we need to run.

Snowflakes are preferred in the above order. If you want to fly a snowflake, be ready to swap to a mainline ship, depending on our numbers.

Fleet Composition

Ideally, we'll have about 2 Bellicoses : 1 Caracal : 1 Scythe : 1 Snowflake. Or somewhere around there. "But what should I plan on flying?" Here's a basic guide to what you should plan on flying, based on what I'm guessing people have trained/want to do. Note that if numbers get skewed too heavy towards something, you may have to swap.

"I want to fly a snowflake:" Be prepared to fly something else, but you might be able to fly your snowflake
"I want to fly logi and can fit the Scythe:" You should be able to fly logi
"I can only fly the T1 Bellicose" Plan on that
"I can only fly the T1 Caracal" Plan on that
"I can fly a T2 Bellicose" Plan on that
"I can fly a T1 Bellicose and Caracal" You'll probably be in a Bellicose
"I can fly a T2 Caracal, but not a T2 Bellicose" You'll probably be in a Caracal. However, lots of people have trained T2 Caracals, since it's BLAP. Heavy missiles aren't really a part of uni doctrines. You may end up flying a T1 Bellicose depending on numbers.

If anyone has any questions, be sure to let me know.
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Archemide

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Post 2019.02.11 02:38

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 2/8

Finally, my thoughts on the doctrine.

The Bellicoses should have a mix of medium/light drones to max out their bandwidth. T1 ships should swap to a T1 BCU (Pyfa lied to me about the price of the compact. Not worth it for 12m in just BCUs).

If we're going to split the Caracals and the Bellicoses, we need a dedicated Caracal FC. No offense to our Caracal anchor, who did a great job. But we need an actual FC with them to call targets/get positioning. Also, add a range script to the bellicoses. No reason not to have it, and it could come in handy.

If we don't have one, this doctrine was built for the Caracals and Bellicoses to have similar ranges. We anchor the Bellis and Caracals together, at ~20k. It's more likely that the squishier bellicoses will be primaried, and we lose most of the advantage of RLMLs by having them hit the primary, but it's the simplest solution.

Also, if there's 4 logi, logi should probably swap to osprey logi. Most of the scythe fit is dedicated to getting cap stable. The ospreys start out there. If you put on 2 nano's, the osprey is just as fast as the scythe. You then get to spend your mids on getting better resists, so you can catch reps better. I'm going to have to play around in Pyfa to figure out a good fit for this.

If anyone else has thoughts on the doctrine, let me know.
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Durnik Risalo

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Post 2019.02.11 17:32

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 2/8

It was a fun, but short, fleet -- thanks for running it.

My only comments are regarding target calling. For the NPC fight, I wasted soooo much time trying to find the correct target. I like broadcasts since you can lock/target the specific target being called (you don't have to waste time looking through a convoluted list on your overview). Evidently, others disagree.

For the pvp fight, I thought it was a strange strategy to forecast your targets. But as you say, you wanted to kill the logi first (I can see that), but that doesn't mean (to me anyway) that you need to only target 1 or 2 logi. In my [maybe limited] opinion, I think you need to pour on the misinformation to the max degree.

We outnumbered them, so maybe think of asking our fleet to target 1 (or 2) random enemies -- this should/may(?) spread their logi locks -- in addition to the 1 or 2 logi you called. Then start with an enemy dps. Maybe we actually kill a ship of theirs. I'm not saying stay on the dps for a long time -- just enough to project some misinformation. Actually, maybe have everyone in our fleet even shoot that "random target" one or two times before coming back to their logi. Then if you're not breaking their logi, do another round of targeting dps or a different logi.

Again, I realize I may not have all the experience you and others have, but I thought I would voice my thoughts. No disrespect intended.
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