[AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

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Archemide

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Post 2019.01.13 20:07

[AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

Roam members (18)
SPOILER WARNING!
Archemide - Punisher
Blops Scout
Caladius - Retribution
CyberBlackEagle - Inquisitor
Drault Sarn - Punisher
Ged Sinak - Malediction
Jesci Quinlan - Retribution
John Parmelee - Deacon
Neemo Beer - Retribution
Penelore - Deacon
Pest Hibra
Retired Slacker
Ryan Ludus - Retribution
Shizuka Shinano - Confessor
Vetch Benderesk - Punisher
Xenotrigger - Deacon
Z0X Ambrye - Stiletto
jammer Atruin - Hyena


Kills and Losses

First, thanks to the Star Frontiers guys who came by. It was a great joint fleet. They also allowed us use of a Titan Bridge to springboard us further into sovnull. It was also a great opportunity to teach some of our guys how Titan Bridges work.

(02:06:28) XHQ-7V
Punisher -2.56m
Capsule -64.92m

Pre-fleet our first cyno was lost trying to set up.

(02:46:07) Hemin
Ibis +0.82m

On our way to the Titan, we saw a cyno up. It turned out to be an ibis on a NPC station, and so an easy kill.

-Insert a lot of jumping around, a lot of shotgunning to try to kill VNIs/miners, and no real luck, unfortunately. -

(03:57:50) FC-3YI, U-HYMT
Drake +62.8m
Drake +60.07m

We had a drake land on us while we were jumping FC-=> U-H. I immediately called for only Ged to aggress (so it couldn't warp off) and the rest of the fleet to hold until the drake got a weapons timer. As soon as he redbox'd someone, I called for full dps. Soon after, a second drake landed on us. Ged went for tackle on the second drake while we burned down the first drake. I told everyone to call if they stopped redboxing, and keep on the first one. We burned through the first drake without any problems. They weren't repping, so had to be either passive or buffer fit. I should've called heat damage as the first drake hit 30-40% shield to burn through the max passive quicker. We then could've ended heat once he was at 10% shield. Live and learn.

As he died, we moved on to the second drake. Shortly thereafter, someone called that he deaggro'd them. I called three people and told them to deagress, so the could immediately get tackle when their weapon timers were up. After I confirmed that the drake had nobody redboxed, I had 2 more DD deagress. The rest of the fleet stayed on him to ensure he was tackled and provide some damage. As soon as the Drake's weapon timer was up, he jumped the gate. I told everyone to jump as soon as their weapon timers had expired. He was immediately tackled by our guys that had already deagressed. I was still agressed, but Drault (our 2ic) was one of the people I told to deagress first. I told him to take over on the other side of the gate while I waited out my combat timer. The fleet crashed on the drake and pinned him down with webs and scrams. This time, he was 10k off the gate, and there was no chance of him jumping through. This time, I did call heat once he hit about 30% shield. Once his shield was gone, I told the fleet to cut heat.

Big shout out to logi for this fight. They kept everyone up though a pair of RLML Drakes. We regrouped and logi topped everyone off, and we even had a couple of hull drones to fix up the guys who hit hull.

From here we had a couple sabres jumping in around us, and we did some gate games trying to catch them. At the end of the day, they were just too fast. Then, scout called a response fleet in Y-M, and it looked like a fight we could take.

(04:18:12) Y-MPWL
Malediction -48.86m
Enyo +57.93m
Hyena -36.89m
Inquisitor -5.12m
Deacon -101.68m
Sabre +87.11m
Retribution -70.45m
Sabre +91.13m
Sabre +81.82m
Retribution -75.46m
Retribution -66.92m
Confessor -86.4m
Hecate +163.02m
Deacon -107.01m
Punisher -5.89m
Retribution -63.74m
Capsule -39.42m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule - Genolution 'Auroral' 197-variant -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

I went ahead and posted a video of this fleet fight. I'm happy to take any and all feedback on this fight. There's some stuff that even I can tell I screwed up (like my personal piloting. I barely used my point, and wasn't using heat/swapping ammo like I should've been), but I know there's stuff in this fight that I don't know enough to know I screwed up. So hopefully this video will help with feedback.

So, we jump into them. Currently a Praxis, Caracal, and ONI on grid. I call Caracal as primary. RLMLs are going to pick us off, and a caracal is a lot easier to kill than an ONI. Malediction lands on us/decloaks by us. Probably should've swapped to him, as we were close enough to get tackle and still had our Hyena for webs. Sabre lands on grid. The Caracal is outrunning us. A malediction lands pretty much on us (probably warped to caracal at range), and we swap to that. Malediction nearly dies before he warps off. Ares lands on us, also close. He becomes the new primary. He burns out fast, like inties do. Sabre is now one of the closest things to us. He'll be lightly tanked, compared to everything else, and bubbles will make our lives painful. He's our new primary. Sabre warps off as we get close. Z0X calls he has enyo tackled (should've warped to him now). I call ONI as new primary, but he's ages off. I finally notice that the enyo is tackled, and call fleet to warp to it. A couple of fleet members (including logi) don't warp in time and are tackled by a inty. Should've aligned and fleet warp'd, prob.

Someone calls that the Praxis is agressed on the gate, and laser fit. I call the fleet to warp to the gate. Bad call for a couple of reasons. 1: We were on the Enyo. Just kill the enyo first. Now he's left alive to tackle some of our guys. This just spreads the fleet out more. 2: Praxis is in a bubble and with a sabre. Now we're stuck playing gate aggression games and are pinned where we don't want to be. 3: If we're not keeping good transversal on the Praxis, those lasers will still do work on us. 4: We were doing just fine going after tackle. Getting pinned by bubbles is going to force us to be where they want us to be. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

Looks like one of the SF guys stayed behind and killed the enyo anyways, but if we had killed it as a fleet, our dps would've been more grouped. Probably was countertackled by the enyo anyways. Most of the fleet warps to the Praxis, but now we've got like 4 guys that have been left behind and tackled at one warp or another. Praxis is called primary. Logi calls that they were tackled. I tell the scouts to warp to them to push off the Ares that has them. 2 Inties + logi should clear out the ares before long. Looks like an Ishtar lands on the logi. 1 logi gets out, the other gets popped. We're not breaking the Praxis. Should've called a regroup here.

New primary is one of the Sabres that landed on us. He bubbles and burns out. Primary is swapped to another sabre. I'm calling Sabres here because 1) bubbles will pin us down. 2) They're lightly tanked, if we can catch them. I call for the fleet to burn out of the bubbles, I want to warp us off. I should've called for the fleet to anchor up on me so we were grouped up. A sabre is burning in towards me, so I call it as primary. Of course, since it was a "scatter out of the bubbles" instead of "anchor on FC", half of the fleet is nowhere near the sabre. We eventually kill him, getting us on the board for this fight.

I call Praxis as primary (what?). No idea why I called that. We couldn't break it before, we're not going to break it now. I need to be popping tackle, or the ONI that can pick us off. I swap back to a Sabre as primary. Sabre warps off. I swap back to the Praxis again, for some reason. Sabre comes back, is called primary, and dies. A new sabre becomes our primary. Fleet is extremely spread out at this point. I call the ONI as primary. Armageddon lands on us, and I call fleet to burn out of the bubbles and scatter. Probably not the right call. Armageddon is bad new and is going to neut us into oblivion, but there's so many enemy ships on grid that no one will actually get out. If we grouped up, we might've popped a couple more people.

1 Logi and 1 Scout survive this fight. A couple of us remain behind in pods.

(04:36:25) D61A-G, 9UY4-H
Punisher -5.78m
Capsule -0.01m
Deacon -101.04m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

And the logi gets popped by bubbles on the way out.

Thanks to everyone that came out, especially to the guys from Star Frontiers. Any and all feedback for the fleet, even if it's from bits that I didn't go into much detail in, is welcome.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 604,716,751.76
ISK Lost: 882,231,250.37
ISK Delta: -277,514,498.61
Efficiency: 40.668%

Overall evaluation
    (Positive stuff)
    Great fleet fight brought by our enemies
    Good learning experience for me (and hopefully other FCs can learn from my mistakes)
    Fleet fight was fun, even if we didn't win
    Got to use a Titan bridge, which pretty much never happens in the Uni
    Drake fight was practically textbook, great job by our guys
    (Negative stuff)
    Fleet fight could've been called better
    First few hours of the fleet was slow (but that's luck of the draw I guess)
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Drault Sarn

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Post 2019.01.13 21:30

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

yes very good fleet and I agree praxis is hard good job on the sabres I watched the video and as soon as i saw the praxis start repping is good time to ignore it. and go for bubblers and tackle. Over all good job considering what we were against.
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Kelon Darklight

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Post 2019.01.14 01:41

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

Couple questions, why didn't the malediction do a scram by on the caracal? That is the entire reason malediction has the scram, and he doesn't need to hold it, a simple drive by would have let something tankier grab him. I watch the caracal speed and that never happened, so inty pilot you dont need to hold scram, just a drive by with the scram will drop his speed for 5 to 7 seconds, and gives people time to catch up.

Going for the praxis was probably a mistake, they tend to be well tanked due to the numerous low and mid slots they have. At the very least you should have finished off the Enyo before doing anything else, as you were all there 17km off him, as the praxis is clearly wanting you to come at him. You will notice that 2-3 guys remained out there with the enyo as you start the fight with the praxis. And as it turns out to be armor tanked, your retribution fleet will do even less damage than normal if he had a reactive fit, as you are only doing 2 damage types. Really think you should have swapped off him and kept shooting all the small stuff on grid.

And why are you orbiting 500m on a sabre? You are messing up your own tracking at that point. You will notice alot of grazing hits. Keep the trans down or orbit further out. Also noticed that nobody grabbed that sabre before it burned out, which confused me considered all the guys you had there, did no one attempt to grab it?

At the end, why were you bothering shooting the osprey navy issue? It has quite good tank and you were low on cap. You should have overheated the MWD, but you did note that issue already.
Champion of Tash-Murkon
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Archemide

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Post 2019.01.14 21:40

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

Kelon Darklight wrote:Couple questions, why didn't the malediction do a scram by on the caracal? That is the entire reason malediction has the scram, and he doesn't need to hold it, a simple drive by would have let something tankier grab him. I watch the caracal speed and that never happened, so inty pilot you dont need to hold scram, just a drive by with the scram will drop his speed for 5 to 7 seconds, and gives people time to catch up.

Going for the praxis was probably a mistake, they tend to be well tanked due to the numerous low and mid slots they have. At the very least you should have finished off the Enyo before doing anything else, as you were all there 17km off him, as the praxis is clearly wanting you to come at him. You will notice that 2-3 guys remained out there with the enyo as you start the fight with the praxis. And as it turns out to be armor tanked, your retribution fleet will do even less damage than normal if he had a reactive fit, as you are only doing 2 damage types. Really think you should have swapped off him and kept shooting all the small stuff on grid.

And why are you orbiting 500m on a sabre? You are messing up your own tracking at that point. You will notice alot of grazing hits. Keep the trans down or orbit further out. Also noticed that nobody grabbed that sabre before it burned out, which confused me considered all the guys you had there, did no one attempt to grab it?

At the end, why were you bothering shooting the osprey navy issue? It has quite good tank and you were low on cap. You should have overheated the MWD, but you did note that issue already.


Thanks for the advice! My personal piloting is pretty bad, especially when I FC. It's something I need to work on. I didn't even notice that I was usually missing the sabre. I should be orbiting closer to 3k I'm guessing on him. The ONI at the end, I saw I was pointed and just burned into him. I should've overheated MWD to try to burn away.
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Kelon Darklight

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Post 2019.01.14 23:43

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

To be honest, unless you are being shot at, you don't need to worry about trans a much as doing as much damage as possible to the target. vs larger things, where you can orbit tightly and not impact tracking orbiting is fine, but vs similar sized or smaller stuff, you need to lower trans to help with application. Just following him would have been good enough in this situation. And its most likely not just you, the more people in your fleet that improve application on target, the faster things die, and the more likely you will win fights. ?As that sabre lasted a surprisingly long time vs your gang. https://zkillboard.com/kill/74520543/ This shows the wide spread of applied damage. Not saying there won't always be low people, but 200 vs 1500 applied is a huge difference.
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Durnik Risalo

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Post 2019.01.15 00:08

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

Kelon Darklight wrote:To be honest, unless you are being shot at, you don't need to worry about trans a much as doing as much damage as possible to the target. vs larger things, where you can orbit tightly and not impact tracking orbiting is fine, but vs similar sized or smaller stuff, you need to lower trans to help with application. Just following him would have been good enough in this situation. And its most likely not just you, the more people in your fleet that improve application on target, the faster things die, and the more likely you will win fights. ?As that sabre lasted a surprisingly long time vs your gang. https://zkillboard.com/kill/74520543/ This shows the wide spread of applied damage. Not saying there won't always be low people, but 200 vs 1500 applied is a huge difference.


I think it comes with E-Uni history... for Noobs on Patrol fleets, you are almost always told to rush to 500m and orbit at 500m -- so, its common and/or implied in most, if not all, E-Uni fleets. I've always thought that, while it's not *neccessarily* wrong, it is *not* the full story. So, I guess, *if* you are trying to take any kind of thinking and understanding away from the "noobs" then it's a good strategy to follow.

But to be fair, you *could* spend any amount of time *teaching* fleet and pvp concepts/practicals... where do you draw the line?
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Harai Rex

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Post Yesterday 01:18

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

Hiya, couple thoughts on the fleet fight after watching the vid.

Overall, I think you did a good job FCing against an enemy that was more experienced and was flying ships that your doctrine struggled to deal with. You made a couple mistakes that resulted in getting fewer kills and taking more losses than you would otherwise, but you shouldn't beat yourself up too much over that.

I agree with everything Kelon said. Although shooting the Praxis in the first place was a mistake for all the reasons he said, I think you did a good job realizing that it was bait tanking you and switching primary as soon as that was clear. With that exception, your target calling overall was good, focusing on stuff that was close to the fleet and easy to kill(i.e. suicide tackle sabres).

At the beginning of the fight I think you wasted a lot of time chasing the caracal. It was solidly faster than the majority of your fleet. A nice trick to use in situations like that, where your tackle can keep up but the DDs can't, is to burn the DDs AWAY from the target until they get 150 km range, and then warp to the tackle at 0.

You should have called for the fleet to switch to longer range ammo for most of the fight. Those retris were so slow that you lost a significant amount of dps having to wait to burn in range with multifreq, and I think your overall damage output would've been higher with standard or gamma loaded. I also think you should have started getting the fleet out the second the orcale, ishtar, etc. gang warped down onto the gate. That gang was very well designed for kiting and killing slow retris and you were never going to do well once they entered the fight. That's something that comes with experience and game knowledge, so don't beat yourself up over it but keep it in mind for the future.

Durnik Risalo wrote: I think it comes with E-Uni history... for Noobs on Patrol fleets, you are almost always told to rush to 500m and orbit at 500m -- so, its common and/or implied in most, if not all, E-Uni fleets. I've always thought that, while it's not *neccessarily* wrong, it is *not* the full story. So, I guess, *if* you are trying to take any kind of thinking and understanding away from the "noobs" then it's a good strategy to follow.

But to be fair, you *could* spend any amount of time *teaching* fleet and pvp concepts/practicals... where do you draw the line?


This argument doesn't really hold water. Explaining not only how the ship is fit but also how to FLY the ship is an integral part of every doctrine, and it is something FCs should ensure everyone is clear on before undocking. You don't need to teach everyone the theorycrafting behind a fit, it's as simple as taking a few seconds to say, "hey, either orbit at x km or keep at range at y km when flying this thing. If you don't know what to do, anchor on FC."
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Penelore

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Post Yesterday 15:20

Re: [AAR] Thursday Things 1/10

You don't need to teach everyone the theorycrafting behind a fit, it's as simple as taking a few seconds to say, "hey, either orbit at x km or keep at range at y km when flying this thing. If you don't know what to do, anchor on FC."


This is a great point. Most of the fleet may not know the best way to fly the doctrine and it's on the FC to explain it a bit if they want people applying as expected and matchups to balance as expected. That being said... saying "if you don't know what to do, anchor on the FC" is a really great tactic. It's not ideal for most fights, but it gives people who are overwhelmed with seeing the field of battle just enough help they might start applying.

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