[LSC] Vexor

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Glen Burney

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Post 2018.08.27 17:01

[LSC] Vexor

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/LSC_Resh ... gram#Vexor

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, LSC - DD Vexor]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates

Warp Scrambler II
50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier

Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I



Valkyrie II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5

Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x1000


Current is 100 over on PG. 1 option would just be to use the BLAP vexor as the LSC vexor, which I may recommend. First, let's talk...
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Glen Burney

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Post 2018.08.27 17:06

Re: [LSC] Vexor

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, Gone Fishin' DPS Vexor]
Damage Control II
800mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x2
Infiltrator II x2
Hornet II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Infiltrator II x1
Hornet II x4

Null M x1600
Void M x1600
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x1600
Navy Cap Booster 400 x20


This one seems to fit...
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Alexander Oromov

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Post 2018.08.27 22:34

Re: [LSC] Vexor

yep, CCP unfortunately did nerf fitting space with the vexor a bit, to hamper it's versatility...

not that it needed a nerf, but whatevs. instead they did decide to give assault frigs uber dominance of everything :lol:
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.08.28 10:58

Re: [LSC] Vexor

The BLAP Vexor has a very specific purpose so I wouldn't take it out unless you had some idea on the engagement you want to take. Is this Vexor meant to be the mainline DD for QRF at LSC?
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Alexander Oromov

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Post 2018.08.28 13:13

Re: [LSC] Vexor

the blap vexor in its current form didn't work out for me.

on the one hand it carries full flights of thermal drones and is ab fit.

on the other hand it's using drone navigation, long point, and damp in the mid slots as default.

in the hold it has a scram, web, sebo, and resebo.

and in the q&a section of the wiki it's presented as assault frigate or t3d killer.

it is as if it's trying to brawl, but at the same time use mids designed for kite. (1) it is not tracking assault frigates or t3d's, especially not their t2 frigate logi - even with 1 or 2 webs applied, (2) if drone nav, than at least 2 or in combination with fast explosive or em drones, but that would go towards anti-kite. + the thermal drones are still too slow, even with the drone nav, (3) fleet will never effectively spread damps and three vexors contribute with 108% unstacked damps, whereas, 1 celestis contributes 200% of unstacked damps and can coordinate. overall, it seems to be in a weird spot in between of two worlds. also battleships and battlecruisers will mjd away from fleet if not using scrams.

imo, double web scram should be default and anti kite refits in cargo hold, but if to be to use those, need some kind of faster drones (em or explo) as well.
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Glen Burney

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Post 2018.08.28 13:46

Re: [LSC] Vexor

What we want is a QRF Vexor for Heydieles. Something that can work in small gang engagements mostly, and yes, it is meant as DD. It must have it's own tackle; it is not a fleet ship. It cannot expect to have logi with it... Arguably we could fit it with neuts and a cap booster and make all the DD come from drones, that way it can apply some good neut pressure too.
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Alexander Oromov

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Post 2018.08.28 14:11

Re: [LSC] Vexor

are we reimbursing faction cruisers? Ashimmu for example would be best for neuts, but it's double the vexor price.
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.08.28 14:30

Re: [LSC] Vexor

Yea, that was my reaction too when I saw the BLAP Vexor and flew a few fleets in them. The sentence in Q&A that mentions about Assault Frigates was written before the AF speed re-balance and introduction of ADC IIRC.

The BLAP Vexor is just entry level brawly doctrine that is meant for playing with big ships (the only BLAP doctrine capable of doing that effectively). If you take it to a kitey / smallship fight then you'll need support ships to compensate or skedaddle when the numbers are too high. If you take it to a brawly fight against better ships you'll need to outnumber them. Its not a silver bullet but its not a terrible entry point either for low SP pilots.
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Erwin Madelung

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Post 2018.08.28 22:46

Re: [LSC] Vexor

Glen Burney wrote:What we want is a QRF Vexor for Heydieles. Something that can work in small gang engagements mostly, and yes, it is meant as DD. It must have it's own tackle; it is not a fleet ship. It cannot expect to have logi with it... Arguably we could fit it with neuts and a cap booster and make all the DD come from drones, that way it can apply some good neut pressure too.

I'm sure you're familiar with hull tanked Brutixes. And I think you already know the following facts:
  • They aren't really much more skill intense. The only skill different in fact is the Gallente battlecruiser skill. As the vexor fit is with T2 guns and drones we can savely assume that any pilot that has that trained probably also has a few level of that.
  • The speed of the first fit is 1303 m/s with perfect skills (1270 m/s with armor rigging 4). Hull tanked Brutix is 1282 m/s. The Gone Fishin' fit's speed is 1401 m/s. That's of course more but this is brought by fitting the smaller plate = less buffer. If you are fine with less buffer may I suggest a Thorax. The TWEET fit has a similar buffer as the vexor with 800 plate but it's speed is 1638 m/s. (I usually always use perfect skills and cold for speeds because it pretty much scales the same for any fit.)
  • The Brutix is of course more expensive. The Hull-Brutix fits that I have saved vary between 90m and [urlhttps://evepraisal.com/a/j2oy9]103m[/url] jita sell price. Insurance cost is 13,613,070 and payout 45,376,900.00 according to zkill. Thus the loss is between 60m and 71m. And LSC SRP for them is 50m if I see that right. The first Vexor fit you posted is around 43m Jita Sell. Insurance cost is 2,677,069.00 and payout is 8,923,564.00. Thus the loss is around 37m. (I'm simply too lazy to check the other fit I expect it to be similar.) T1 cruiser get 8m SRP in the uni no special SRP at the LSC as far as I can see. Especially after SRP the favour tends a lot towards the Brutix imho. But even without SRP I expect most pilots who can use T2 guns and drones to be willing to pay the price for the additional value the get from the Brutix.
  • The additional value of the Brutix is of course it's higher DPS and buffer. You can slowly trade off in the lowslots between those. The high DPS fit has 1004 DPS (cold) / 1130 DPS (hot) and 58k EHP buffer. The high buffer fit has 787 DPS (cold) / 881 DPS (hot) and 90.8k EHP buffer. The first vexor fit has 535 (cold) / 572 (hot) and 40k EHP (which doesn't work anymore anyways because of the nerf). The other fit has 643 (cold) / 683 (hot) and 33.2k EHP.
Please also note that the second Vexor fit needs a 1% CPU implant which makes it bad for a fit that you pull from contract to jump directly into battle. The Vexor fits are overall not bad but imho inferior to the Brutix for the usecase. (I would use the second Vexor for some solo PvP and hope that people might be surprised about the high DPS a Vexor can unleash. In theory people should be aware as drones and hybrids are very high DPS but people are often still silly.)
So I would go with Hull-Brutixes. Further I want to add that Solitude made very good experiences with Iskalysts (original thread is gone because of archive) as has the WHC with basically the same fits (see this feedback). This would be mostly a variant for low SP player.


Further, I want to add that I cannot understand the low regard for the BLAP Vexors. It's late for me so I might type up a defense for them another time.
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Tal Tracyn

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Post 2018.09.05 17:15

Re: [LSC] Vexor

We used T2 BLAPS to kill those Nestors the other day but with rails and damps
SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, BLAP T2]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Phased Muon Scoped Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening Script
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Drone Navigation Computer II

Dual 150mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2


556DPS and with a Blackbird the damps are REALLY effective if you use scan res scripts on logi.Also fitting room to swap in a MWD
The Vexor for us in HSC is the first boat any newbro will get into for missions so it makes sence to use them in pvp fleets.
Results may vary in other campuses.
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Glen Burney

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Post 2018.09.05 18:36

Re: [LSC] Vexor

There are things I do like about the BLAP Vexors:
- They have tackle. It is important that every ship in a QRF doctrine be able to at least attempt to keep a ship in range.
- The have an AB. So even if scram-webbed, they have a chance to escape.
- The have damps. So a few of them can hope to break a lock and escape.
- They have rails. Can apply DPS at many ranges.
- The have a very good tank. Can survive for at least a bit.
- Vexor is a popular hull for newbros to train into.
- They are an established doctrine, and can be very powerful.
- They have a point and not a scram. So a boosh will be more likely to work (no accidental scram-blocks)

There are things I do NOT like about BLAP Vexors (for a QRF):
- They have optional fittings in the hold. So if the instance is "Quick! Get a vexor off contract and undock it, there's a BS here red-boxed", then there is an extra step of having to refit a web.
- They have AB and not MWD. QRF really needs to be able to get to the action. If it's an undock situation, and a boosh has successfully put the target 100km away, burning will be necessary, and AB will be too slow.
- They have a point and not a scram. In lowsec especially, scram is king.
- They have 2 different weapon systems AND a damp. For newbro, and even sometimes experienced pilots, less is often more. I would argue that drones + damage mods is better than drones + guns. Plus you can fit neuts.
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Alexander Oromov

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Post 2018.09.05 21:43

Re: [LSC] Vexor

AB Vexor

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, A-AB ★ Medea | BL1 ★ 628 DPS ✈ 7.29s | 482ms ✚ 44'143 EHP | Close Combat - EHP Focus]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Ogre II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Ogre II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1


Antimatter Charge M x1320
Warp Disruptor II x1
Phased Muon Scoped Sensor Dampener x2
Null M x992
Void M x1648
Phased Scoped Target Painter x2
Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S x660
Nanite Repair Paste x20
Scan Resolution Dampening Script x2
Targeting Range Dampening Script x2


MWD Vexor

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, M-AB ★ Medea | BL1 ★ 628 DPS ✈ 7.29s | 1'240ms ✚ 40'143 EHP | Close Combat - EHP Focus]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Ogre II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x1
Ogre II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1


Antimatter Charge M x1320
Warp Disruptor II x1
Phased Muon Scoped Sensor Dampener x2
Null M x992
Void M x1648
Phased Scoped Target Painter x2
Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S x660
Nanite Repair Paste x20
Scan Resolution Dampening Script x2
Targeting Range Dampening Script x2


For a Vexor, I'd still go AB because he is sooo slow. you basically need to rely on a tackled target you can warp to. If MWD than probably Thorax would be good, also easier for E-Uni people, because our drone response time and drone micro management skill doesn't work well. also many can only use t1 mediums not to speak of heavy drones.

at the end of the day, maybe a brutix would be a better choice for qrf.

or since we have feroxes on the table, feroxes could be a standard structure defense qrf fleet thing as well.
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Glen Burney

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Post 2018.09.06 16:13

Re: [LSC] Vexor

OK, decision time has come.
We will go with the MWD Vexor that Alex identified. I cleaned up the fit a bit:

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, LSC - DD Vexor]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x2

Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S x800
Void M x800
Null M x800


I will start making changes in a day or two, in case there's a derp somewhere in there
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.09.07 00:56

Re: [LSC] Vexor

Note that blaster fits are problematic in a different way, when it comes to QRF functions. Even in lowsec, engagement ranges usually don't permit a large number of ships to apply blaster damage at once. (If it was the case that you could rely on blaster-range DPS for QRFs, Thoraxes would be in a much better place right now.)
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Erwin Madelung

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Post 2018.09.07 09:37

Re: [LSC] Vexor

Glen Burney wrote:OK, decision time has come.
We will go with the MWD Vexor that Alex identified. I cleaned up the fit a bit:

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vexor, LSC - DD Vexor]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II
Heavy Electron Blaster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x2

Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S x800
Void M x800
Null M x800


I will start making changes in a day or two, in case there's a derp somewhere in there

I have to say that I'm baffled. You ask and get the answer that for this particular use the vexor isn't advisable. Alex himself writes about his fit that he would go with AB or a Thorax. Still you use that fit (That fit is ok if you really really want to force a MWD solo buffer Vexor). Still you decide to go for it even without any comment. In an usual situation of communication people would explain why they go for something else after they explicitly asked for other people's opinion.


@Alex
I get different stats for your fits than you have in your fit name. For example with a mixed set of drones and hot blasters with void pyfa tells me 601 DPS for both fits. But it says 628 DPS in your fit name. Other numbers don't really work out either. Maybe those stats are for former, different fits? Maybe some drugs or implants are accidentally activ. (I had some confusion myself once because I compared a fit with command bursts projected to a fit without :lol: )
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