Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

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Shar Thrityh

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Post 2017.07.17 13:17

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

well written AAR, Titus! That's a very nice recounting of what happened and the reasoning behind some of the major decisions.

There's one aspect I'm kind of missing from the entire thing, though: what do you (or other people from the organisational side of things) think could have gone better / smoother or what would you have done differently in hindsight? If we were to organize another one of these in (hopefully kind-of-distant) future, what are the pitfalls we'd have to be careful of?
That might be a very interesting section to make common knowledge as well.
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Dunar Dolorgiet

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Post 2017.07.17 13:18

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Muzzy Chuck wrote:Opportunities were missed right from the beginning, in my opinion. Eve University is a teaching organisation but despite a blank sheet of two or three days stretching before it, with a captive audience of at least a few dozen at any given time, no consideration was given to formally educating the newbros (or even the clueless olderbros) about what was going on. I thought this at the time but it became even clearer last night in a public Game Mechanics class when people who had been there were still trying to find out what was going on - how do wormholes actually work? Critting a WH... what? Why the different classes of WH? Why did we do this at all?


Thank you for the feedback, we'll incorporate it into the next op if feasible.
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White 0rchid

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Post 2017.07.17 13:20

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Muzzy Chuck wrote:I
Rather than fairly divvying-up the spoils to make sure the rewards had an even chance of going to everybody who deserved them for the time they had dedicated to the cause, the firesale of ships became a wallet-waving exercise for a group of 6-10 people, immediately excluding the best part of 100 still in fleet. Those of us who aren't exactly rolling in space money.
Sure the stupidly-OTT proceeds went to the Uni (which no doubt has a not-unreasonable bank account already), but POS bashes aren't the organisation's sole source of income so raising as much ISK as humanly possible wasn't the be-all and end-all... so why not actually offer a chance for the little people to benefit from their efforts? Some kind of raffle? Giveaways? A draw? Competitions, even?


Were you under the impression you were going to get a share of the loot? From what I saw most of the items sold at almost the same price as they are in Jita so it wasn't exactly OTT. Also, to correct you, the uni's wallet is most definitely not bulging, I know that for sure. They were collecting the isk to use for things like SRP and skill books, which helps the entire organisation, the same way collecting loot does on campus fleets (assuming you still do that).

Also, you see all those threads (and questions in the Q&As that come up), where unistas moan about how the uni never does anything to hurt war targets etc etc, well, this was one of those times it could. Be thankful for the content that other people took the time to provide.

Fwiw - I'd do exactly the same if it were me.
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Space Warfare Development

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Post 2017.07.17 14:03

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

170717 0700 DST

Recommended award for all active participants.
For review and edit. I am not sure how many characters are allowed in the decorations section of the in-game character profile/decorations tab.

DECORATION: STATION SIEGE MEDAL

CITATION: AWARDED FOR PARTICIPATION IN OPERATION: CHOROGON, WORMSPACE J220338, EVE STARDATE 170715 2200UTC. DURING THE THREE-DAY SIEGE, PILOT HAS DEMONSTRATED PROFESSIONALISM, EXCELLENCE, PERSEVERANCE, AND COURAGE UNDER FIRE, RESULTING IN THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF AN AZBEL ENGINEERING COMPLEX, MOROS CLASS GALLENTE DREADNOUGHT, DOMINIX CLASS GALLENTE BATTLESHIP, ASTERO CLASS SISTERS OF EVE PIRATE FACTION FRIGATE, GALLENTE CONTROL TOWER, AND NINE CUSTOMS OFFICES OWNED BY WAR-DECLARED CORPORATION, GLOBAL WARMERS CORP. PILOT HAS MAINTAINED PROFESSIONALISM AND EXCELLENCE IN KEEPING WITH THE STANDING DIRECTIVES OF THE UNIVERSITY.
Last edited by Space Warfare Development on 2017.07.17 16:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Xana McBash

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Post 2017.07.17 14:14

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Breeze One wrote:And let us pay respect to Xana McBash's already strained sanity.


I went inna woods during the weekend, no internet, only respite.
Back to being just a little bit crazy 8)

Where to start?
This was exhausting, soul-crushing even. There were times when I thought we would not be able to bring it to conclusion.
But we did. And it was worth it!
Special thanks to:

The Brain
SPOILER WARNING!
Kudos to Titus, Michael Alderman, and whoever else helped build the plan. This clearly was a thought-out, well organized endeavor!


The Heart
SPOILER WARNING!
The logistics weirdos gods did a good job supplying us throughout the whole OP. The contracts, the beachhead POS and the spare ships allowed the fleet to function.
Free Cookies to those of you who brought the oracles (that's you k950, who also gave some logi newbros a long and thorough intro speech, you sir are awesome)


The Muscle
SPOILER WARNING!
That's all of you knuckleheads, myself included, who dedicated hours (and missiles) in service of the Uni. You held the hole, you bashed the structures, you made me proud of being a Unista.


The Funny Bone
SPOILER WARNING!
Despite being cooked up in a hole just as long as I was, Davnik and Vertxsees made the grinding tolerable. Your shenanigans made us laugh multiple times. Cheers!


I will not be doing more evictions any time soon!

"Who's in charge here?"
"Eve University"
Last edited by Xana McBash on 2017.07.17 14:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard Marte

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Post 2017.07.17 14:23

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

White 0rchid wrote:Were you under the impression you were going to get a share of the loot? From what I saw most of the items sold at almost the same price as they are in Jita so it wasn't exactly OTT. Also, to correct you, the uni's wallet is most definitely not bulging, I know that for sure. They were collecting the isk to use for things like SRP and skill books, which helps the entire organisation, the same way collecting loot does on campus fleets (assuming you still do that).


I agree, but I've been around and see how these things tend to work. In general loot from ops tends to go to Uni coffers to pay for SRP/etc, and the cost to run ops, and to run the Uni in general. The auction was probably not intended to not be inclusive - it was just a way to get a bunch of hulls out of the corporate haulers and into private hands - selling them in the hole instead of at Jita. I doubt anybody was hurt by how it was done vs how it would otherwise have been done.

However, I can also see how somebody who didn't realize what was going on could feel like something underhanded was going on.

I will comment that the Uni doesn't operate the way a lot of big sov alliances operate. In a big sov alliance you're more like an employee. They give you the ships. They replace the ships that are lost. You just show up. The op loot probably pays for some of it, but most comes from nullbears and moon goo and such. The Uni doesn't have access to these income streams, so it can't just pay pilots to have fun in the same way. I say this having never actually been in a sovnull corp, so corrections are welcome, but this is my sense of it. The uni in comparison has a pretty modest SRP - it isn't designed to encourage people to show up in their Titans to defend the cause. It is just a way to help soften the blow of losses and encourage people to turn out in the doctrine fit. You're not going to get paid to PVP in the Uni.

In contrast PVE in the Uni tends to be much more "egalitarian" with everybody sharing in the loot, in my experience. In the Uni PVE is about making isk, and PVP is about blowing stuff up.
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Muzzy Chuck

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Post 2017.07.17 14:48

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

White 0rchid wrote:Were you under the impression you were going to get a share of the loot?

I had no impression about anything and, regardless, that's beside the point. The point is that some people got a share of the loot, and as it turned out it was only those with hefty wallets (for the most part). That being the case it would have been fairer if everybody had an equal opportunity to get a share and that didn't happen.

White 0rchid wrote:Also, you see all those threads (and questions in the Q&As that come up), where unistas moan about how the uni never does anything to hurt war targets etc etc, well, this was one of those times it could.

I am aware of that. I am also not one of those people. Feel free to check the 'Decorations' section of my bio, which is related to hunting war targets, albeit during my original time in the game/Uni.

White 0rchid wrote:Be thankful for the content that other people took the time to provide.

I am thankful, and I thought I had made that clear in my post. Apologies if that did not come across.

Richard Marte wrote:However, I can also see how somebody who didn't realize what was going on could feel like something underhanded was going on.

To clarify I knew exactly why the hulls were being sold off and I didn't in any way think there was something underhand going on. I just thought it could have been done in a more inclusive way. It wouldn't have been a surprise to anybody that there were hulls in the Azbel, so perhaps a plan should have been formulated in advance about how to dispose of them and/or get them out of there.

Finally, my criticism was intended to be constructive but I am aware that I can be somewhat tactless at times and appear to be on the offensive. Be assured that it's not intentional - it's just my way.
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Eulynn

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Post 2017.07.17 15:20

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

I could only be there for a little while on day one, but I did manage to get in when the POS came out of reinforce and stayed until the bitter end of day 3

Major props to the logi bros and everyone who hung around for hole control for 3 days. I was only in the hole for maybe 12 hours over the weekend, and I was starting to get space madness, so I can't imagine how you all felt. You all made the whole thing possible, and I thank you for your perseverance in the face of soul-crushing boredom. Hope you at least leveled up your Project Discovery.

It was a good operation.

I like dealing with hisec wardeccers like this. I like the idea of deleting their isk-making infrastructure when they decide to mess with us.
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Shar Thrityh

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Student Advocate
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Post 2017.07.17 15:26

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Muzzy Chuck wrote:I had no impression about anything and, regardless, that's beside the point. The point is that some people got a share of the loot, and as it turned out it was only those with hefty wallets (for the most part). That being the case it would have been fairer if everybody had an equal opportunity to get a share and that didn't happen.


Unfortunately, when you start auctioning off stuff like rattlesnakes and barghests, you're looking at an extremely limited subset of the Uni population that have a use for those hulls AND have the ISK to actually buy them on the spot. Iirc, there were only a few entry-level hulls available and those were sold vastly overpriced for entertainment (the thunderdome procurers) and as donations to the Uni.
I was able to buy the Viator at a very decent price because it fit a niche: not overly expensive to get the interest of the really wealthy, but too expensive for the newbros...

Muzzy Chuck wrote:To clarify I knew exactly why the hulls were being sold off and I didn't in any way think there was something underhand going on. I just thought it could have been done in a more inclusive way. It wouldn't have been a surprise to anybody that there were hulls in the Azbel, so perhaps a plan should have been formulated in advance about how to dispose of them and/or get them out of there.


But it's good that this is brought up. Even if it was fair in its execution, if this isn't clear for all participants, then there are going to be hard feelings and malcontent. A better explanation and describing the why's seem like it would have eased a lot of your / the newbro's concerns.
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LeFleur

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Post 2017.07.17 15:59

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

I'd like to point out that a Gnosis hull, the top tier a alpha can fly, was auctioned only to alphas and bought for 5 million isks. I know that was not the general idea with the rest of the hulls, but that single detail made the whole auction shine.

I didn't get to buy anything, even when I pushed a little, but I was happy because what I saw was not people buying ships, I saw people trying to outdo each other in how much isk they gave to the uni. Perhaps it's just that having been in the uni for more than 3 years gives me a better sense of this kind of things, so that's why I want to share my perspective.

I even mentioned in coms something like "Note to myself, bring more money for next OP" because that is how I humorously I saw it.
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Tygron Hynde

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Post 2017.07.17 16:08

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Thanks for organizing this Titus. It was a fun couple of days.
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Muzzy Chuck

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Post 2017.07.17 16:12

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

LeFleur wrote:I'd like to point out that a Gnosis hull, the top tier a alpha can fly, was auctioned only to alphas and bought for 5 million isks. I know that was not the general idea with the rest of the hulls, but that single detail made the whole auction shine.

I couldn't agree more with that. It was a nice touch and a proper bargain for the winner :P
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Ulrik Elristan

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Post 2017.07.17 19:09

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Woah woah, nobody got "a share of the loot", everybody bought pretty much at Jita price, or above, and it's not like anybody could have known what was in the Abel exactly.
I mean, the corpse was bought for over 200 mil...
So these were merely chance acquisitions. I doubt that whoever bought the Barghest was actually in need of one... They not only took it upon themselves to help the Uni by paying from their own wallet, but also by giving a break to the logistics team who would've had to move these out of the hole and sold them in Jita.
Having this was probably one of the most fun moments of the event, what with the most hilarious death narration ever, people battling over silly stuff (CEO corpse, again... I'm slightly salty I spent so much beforehand, I wanted this !). So I'm sure glad Titus was too tired to do the dozen trips required to take these ships out.

About classes and stuff, I do agree this could have been done. Will be next time, assuredly. The people organizing this most likely were too busy to do this, and too focused to even think about it in the first place, though. But now that we know, I'm sure Dunar and his minions will jump on the next opportunity to cook up a symposium :lol:
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu.


May enter novel-writing mode at any time. Beware of the walls of text !
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Magic Anninen

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Post 2017.07.17 19:43

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

@Muzzy Chuck
Hey man,
kudos to you for writing down your thoughts which are indeed "at the other side if the spectrum" of which was written in this thread.
It seems you took your time to think about what you wrote, that's good. I can't sense any real bad feelings in your post, but bad enough to be brought up, and it's good that you've done it.

Eve University is an open group. We all benefit from different opinions and can learn from each other.

For one, it's an exiting story to tell his friends that he camped a WH for 10+ hours nonstop, the other just felt lost and was disappointed. All of that may be true, more important, all of it should be heard and taken into account for the next time.
Some things might never change, like the need to do this kind of "boring" duty of hole-control. Others might be easily implemented if possible, like using the time for any kind of education or finding a better way how to finish things up (firesale).

On my end I can say that I enjoyed the whole OP. I knew how "boring" structure bashing would be, but still I had some kind of fun doing it...just because we did it together. That was my personal reward for this whole thing.

cheers to you all
Magic
NSC Officer: Structure Team | Hangars Team

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Conci Furiram

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Post 2017.07.17 23:48

Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Muzzy Chuck wrote:I had no impression about anything and, regardless, that's beside the point. The point is that some people got a share of the loot, and as it turned out it was only those with hefty wallets (for the most part). That being the case it would have been fairer if everybody had an equal opportunity to get a share and that didn't happen.


Clearly logic isn't your strong point.

Loot is the UNIs. Loot by itself can't be used to fund uni programs without being converted to ISK. Instead of the OP organizers hauling the loot to Jita and selling it there, they decided to have a firesale in the hole and let whoever bought it, also haul it out. Auction price for the ships all turned out to be higher than Jita cause people are generous and support the IMO.

Your trolling (or unfortunate stupidity) is attacking the generosity of the pilots who bought the ships. They payed extra as donation and dealt with the logistics of hauling the ships out of the hole. Your whining is for what? That you did not personally get a ship given to you? What "equal opportunity" was lacking?
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