Why can't I get my head around PI?

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Muzzy Chuck

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Post 2017.07.01 11:59

Why can't I get my head around PI?

"Take a look at doing PI", said my E-Uni recruiter when I returned after three years in the wilderness of real life.
"It's a great source of passive income," he added.
"Once it's set up you only have to do things with it every few days," he said.

So I've spent two-odd weeks training up my alt with the help of the Rogue Swarm Accelerators and I've now got all the necessary skills I need, some of which I've trained up more than a beginner PI alt needs. I've watched the videos... so many videos... I've read stuff, I've found guides, I've seen charts...

...and I still literally have no idea what I'm doing.

To be honest the entire thing is as dull as ditchwater and complete and utter gobbledegook. The videos even make me nod off to sleep.
Take the flange combobulator and link it to the spigot reductor nipple. Don't forget to link the rotating flobble valve to the salt collection point, being sure to route it through the Destroyer of all Hope Repository...
Every video I've seen says the same nonsense stuff as though it's all knowledge everyone is automagically born with and I can't find a single thing which speaks to me in plain, plain English, walking me through every single step without skimming over so much as a single link between two units.

I don't even know what I want to make - or why I want to make it - never mind how to actually do it. I think I've managed to set up something on a low-sec lava planet which has been running for three days and stopped, but now I can't find out a) what I've extracted, b) how much there is of it, c) where it even is (it's certainly not in my storage thingy), and d) what I need to do with it next.

I really want to do PI - I could do with the income, but this is driving me around the bend. Can anyone help? I'm not particularly thick, but I literally need to have it explained to me like a child :(
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Marius Labo

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Post 2017.07.01 13:22

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

It sounds like you're just impatient and you're not picking up the basic details on how it works.

Perhaps reading instead of videos is more your speed? People differ in their learning styles. Some can simply listen and they learn, others need to do something in order to learn, some learn best by reading, etc. If the videos are nonsense to you try the wiki?
https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Planetary_Interaction

Like anything in EVE Online right-click is your window to setting things up, etc.

As to what and why you'd want to make it. Your stated goal with PI is to make ISK. Do some homework (yes, this will take a bit of effort) as to what PI goods sell well on the regional markets, especially in the hubs. Decide how involved you want get for said goods. P2 goods are simpler to make than P3 or P4, but you make less ISK selling P2. Your investment to make P2 is much lower than making the higher tier goods. If it's just ISK, some ground work here will help you decide relatively quickly.

Here's a nice flow-chart to get a quick visual on what is needed to make what: http://alysii.com/eve/pi/ - just mouse-over, very elegant.

Here's another good resource for PI: http://eveplanets.com/

I hope some of this helps.
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Fergus Echerie

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Post 2017.07.01 14:27

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

I feel your pain and have been through all those experiences in the past few months, however once you understand it and it's running it's pretty easy.

If you've had something running but don't see any output then it's possible you didn't set the output route from extractor to storage, which I've done a few times. The extraction will run happily but nothing goes anywhere :(

Based on having 5 planets due to skills I decided the best option was Synthetic Synapses as you only need 4 inputs, this is a useful planning site, can pm you setup I came up with.

http://evegadgets.com/

Here's a link that shows the layouts (look for Lulu Linnettes reply)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=506056
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Muzzy Chuck

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Post 2017.07.04 12:39

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Thanks for the help and advice both here and in-game, everyone.
Having been directed to something in plain Ingerlish (which I'm amazed I didn't find sooner before posting this whine, TBH) I'm now picking my way through things in simple baby steps and think I'm making progress!
Rest assured that if everything falls down around my ears I'll be back here to have another moan and start chucking toys around :P
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Devoros Vyndiver

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Post 2018.05.28 14:21

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

I'm in the same boat. Wrapping my head around this whole PI thing is a bit difficult for me.

I'm one of those who learns best by being walked through step-by-step. I can read something all day long and often still not completely get it. But once I'm shown or have had something explained in simple terms, and do it a few times myself, I've got it.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.05.28 15:15

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Long shot, but if you have the tools to stream playing EVE, then you could perhaps find some PI-enthusiast who could watch you and talk you through it. Or the other way around, if someone who does PI wants to stream it to you and tell you what they are doing and you can ask questions while they are doing it. Interactive, instead of all the (more or less) instructional videos out there.
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2018.05.28 16:14

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Devoros Vyndiver wrote:I'm in the same boat. Wrapping my head around this whole PI thing is a bit difficult for me.

I'm one of those who learns best by being walked through step-by-step. I can read something all day long and often still not completely get it. But once I'm shown or have had something explained in simple terms, and do it a few times myself, I've got it.


I'm at the AMC currently (in my long line of moving around between Campuses) I can be on comms tonight and walk you through it. if you see me in a different channel just message me

Of course maybe you'd want to wait a day or 2 since PI is changing
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Guiliano Thellere

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Post 2018.05.29 08:48

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

PI took me ages to get into and I’d still say after 6 months I don’t fully understand it... one thing I have found however is that you seem to pick it up and will have a few “lightbulb” moments just by doing it, so start small. Produce P2 for a couple of months, move on to P3 when you feel ready and then if and when, P4 (although don’t necessarily see P4 as the end game as not everyone wants the extra little bit of work involved to produce this).

One other slightly annoying thing is, outside the Uni you won’t find too many complete step by step guides to good setups or players showing exactly how they make the big bucks as those that do like to keep their secrets to themselves.

Have you got an alt in Horde? They have some pretty good player written PI guides in their forum...
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Xafen Katapi

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Post 2018.05.29 14:52

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Is it reasonable to do some PI in high sec to try and learn the basics? I setup a couple things in Amy just to start poking around and see what I pick up. I realize I'm basically throwing away isk doing PI in high sec, but I only plopped down maybe 5M of stuff so...=)

Basically, are the mechanics the same for PI in any sec status? Will my poking at PI in high sec serve any purpose?
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2018.05.29 15:10

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Xafen Katapi wrote:Is it reasonable to do some PI in high sec to try and learn the basics? I setup a couple things in Amy just to start poking around and see what I pick up. I realize I'm basically throwing away isk doing PI in high sec, but I only plopped down maybe 5M of stuff so...=)

Basically, are the mechanics the same for PI in any sec status? Will my poking at PI in high sec serve any purpose?


High sec resource extraction from a planet is pretty terrible. not only is the resources hardly there but you also have the concord tax plus the corp tax for the corp owning the poco.

that said it does provide 2 opportunities.

1. Learning. with minimal epithal explosions.

2. making a factory planet. This requires 2 things, custom code expertise trained to 5 with a low corporate tax rate and a closeness to a market. Basically in this situation you will buy PI (P1s) from the market drop them down to the planet launch pads and use the factories to turn them into P2s or P3s or P4s you have to have a spreadsheet to figure all this out. but it can be profitable, without having to deal with resource extraction
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Zoltan Irvam

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Post 2018.06.04 09:16

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Hi,

I agree that in hisec factory planets close to Jita are the way to go. It's a lot of clicks to set up and retool (if market fluctuations dictate a switch to a new product), but good money is quite possible (1 char with 6 planets doing T2->T4 can make 100m plus per day with 20-30 minutes of hauling and trading). I can post an image of my setup tonight (1 launchpad, 2 storage, 5 hi-tech and 20 advanced).

Zoltan
Last edited by Zoltan Irvam on 2018.06.04 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2018.06.04 11:49

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

I've had a chance to play with the new PI interface and I think it is a giant step in the right direction.
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Zoltan Irvam

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Post 2018.06.05 06:18

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Hi,

as promised, here's my setup for a factory planet doing 5 x P2 -> P4 per hour. This is for Command Center Upgrades 5. Since we use hi-tech factories, this setup is limited to barren or temperate planets and their radius should be at 5900km or less - 5900km (or roughly 70km minimum link length) makes for a very tight fit.
t2-t4.png


As can be seen, it has the following buildings:
1 CC, expanded to the max (CCU 5). This one is not shown here and situated just outside the image border. It does not need to be linked to anything in this setup.
1 Launchpad (more would be be more convenient, but greedy me traded a few clicks for profit here). It contains either a P1 (for the easier P4s which only need two P3 and one P1) or an imported P3 for the others.
2 Storage Units (let's call them A for the top one and B for the lower right one). A contains the ingredients for one P3, B for the other.
5 Hi-Tech factories making 5 P4 per hour with 3 routing their output to storage A and 2 to the launchpad (all 5 into one storage or the launchpad will possibly run into space issues). They get one P3 each from storage A, one from storage B and either the imported P1 or P3 from the launchpad.
10 Advanced factories making one kind of P3, feeding from storage A and routing their output back in there.
10 Advanced factories making the other kind of P3, feeding from storage B and routing their output back in there.

In general, you want to minimize link length as far as possible and route length to 6 or below - other ways to order the buildings might work too - this one doedn't look so tidy but minimizes link and route lengths.
All links are left at the base level except for the one between the launchpad and storage A. This one is upgraded to level 6 (expedited). You can go higher but only when all else is standing).

For operations, you import the ingredients for storage A first and do an expedited transfer from launchpad to storage A - with a level 6 link the cooldown is 5 or 6 minutes only. You can then import the ingredients for storage B.
Repeat the above for all the planets you have to do in this go (I usually do 3 planets doing the same P4 at a time).
Wait until the cooldown on the first planet is over (usually 3-4 minutes left) or do sth else.
Do an expedited transfer of the ingredients for storage B from launchpad to storage B - there will be a long cooldown after that, but we don't care because the expedited transfers are done for today...
Import the rest of the ingredients (imported P1 or P3) into launchpad.
Wait for the time you imported ingredients for - this works for 24h for most P4 (18h or so for those which use P3s made from 3 different P2).
After that, you first export the P4 from the launchpad, do an expedited transfer of the P4 from storage A to launchpad and export those too.
Fly to market and sell, buy new ingredients, fly back to factory planets and repeat.
It is a good idea not to let the factories run completely dry as you then lose some production time due to rampup.

Bonus question - the image above has been made shortly after importing ingredients and retooling for a new P4 - which P4s could I be producing on there and why. First correct answer gets a copy of my favorite Epithal (the WH/Nullsec PI hauler from the wiki).

Zoltan
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Falling Snow KumaMoto

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Post 2018.08.12 16:07

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Great info! I’ve learned a lot reading this thread, as I try to get my own PI running. I know it’s 2 months old, but I wanted to try a guess at what Zoltan was making in that picture, if for no other reason than simply to do some homework, plus puzzles are fun.

tl;dr: I’m betting he’s making either wetware mainframes or integrity response drones, importing 6 different P2s and 1 P3 about every 18 hours to keep the show running.

He said the setup was just retooled, so no P4 or P3 has been produced yet. That means launchpad and storage units (and factories) are full of imported stuff only. His description has a storage unit dedicated to each P3 line.

The storage units hold P2s only then, and look like they have about 7500 m3 (a bit less than 2/3 full, at 12,000m3 capacity) each, about equal, so the P3s being produced both require either 3xP2s or 2xP2s. If the AdvFac are making P3s requiring 2xP2s, he said he’d run for 24 hours. Each run needs 10x1.5m3 of each P2 for each of 10 AdvFacs, meaning 300m3 per hour of P2s, or 7200m3 in each storage unit. However, the AdvFacs are already running, so we subtract the initial 300 m3 needed for startup, and 6900m3 should remain. If the AdvFacs are making P3s requiring 3xP2s, for 18 hours, that’d be 8100 m3, minus the initial 450m3, for 7650 m3. Without a mouse-over, it looks more like he’s running P3s requiring 3xP2s, for roughly 18 hours, which narrows down the list of possible P3s produced to 6 different items. The possible combinations of those items limits the setup to either wetware mainframes or integrity response drones as a P4 product, neither of which require a P1, instead 3xP3s.

As a partial check, if we require 1xP1 imported (40 units x 0.38 m3 each run) and 2xP3s (6 units x 6 m3 each run) produced onsite (for 18 hours), that’s 76m3/hr P1s or 1368m3, minus the initial 76m3 (since the HiFacs say they are loaded with 1 required commodity, presumably the imported one), for 1289m3. The launchpad holds the imported P1 or P3 for the HiFacs, and it looks like it has a bit less than a third full (of 10k m3 capacity), or 3000 m3: way more than 1200m3. Instead, it must have imported P3s in it, since we would need 3240 m3 for 18 hr (minus the initial 180m3), for 3060 m3 of imported P3 stored.

Other ideas? Have I gone wrong somewhere?
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Zoltan Irvam

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Post 2018.08.12 18:19

Re: Why can't I get my head around PI?

Falling Snow KumaMoto wrote:tl;dr: I’m betting he’s making either wetware mainframes or integrity response drones, importing 6 different P2s and 1 P3 about every 18 hours to keep the show running.


Congratulations, you win a fit Epithal... The reasoning is sound, I think I was producing Integrity Response Drones back then.

I'll contract the ship to you asap - it'll come from one of my PI alts though as Zoltan cannot even fly it, I think...

Good luck with your production!

PS: you really might want to have a look at https://dev.adam4eve.eu/pi_chain.php - it's a great tool!

Zoltan
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