[AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

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Laser Skaron

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Post 2017.05.17 10:10

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Maximus Hert wrote:After watching lasers video of fleet I came to 2 conclusions:
1 I really don't like the sound of my voice.
2 I need to communicate more with my logi wing.


Dammit Maximus, SPOILERS...

The videos still require processing and are not yet shared with the public. They've so far been only shared with a few people to get feedback on what is "opsec" in them and what needs to be censored. They need some editing and will be uploaded later today along with a ton of feedback on fleet positioning, broadcasting, shot calling, overall fleet activity and so on... ton of stuff I learned from them.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2017.05.17 12:41

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Okay, first off, it sounds like you guys did a fantastic job of planning this operation. The smartbomber was a really good idea, the doctrine was well selected, and overall you should be proud of the work you put into preparing for this.

Second, it's a bit surprising to me that you neither had any booshers of your own nor a way to deal with enemy booshers. I don't think it's been published, but in the guide on how to fly Vexors that I've been writing for Titus I say that one boosher with double links is mandatory ("don't undock without this", like the requirement of 3 augorors for the minimum size Vexor fleet) and you really ought to have a ratio of one boosher for every 8-10 Vexors. This is both because of links and because of the fact that slow armor brawlers really require the extra mobility that booshers provide.

As for dealing with enemy booshers, a Keres or Maulus Navy Issue can handle this fairly well. You can also just have a dedicated anti-boosher Vexor like you have a smartbomber, refit utility mids for dual sensor boosters (scan res scripts of course) and a scram. Remember that an active MJFG blooms the hell out of your sig (150% increase on top of anything from a prop mod) so it's not like an instalock is needed to stop booshers.

Waffles Speshul Tektics
SPOILER WARNING!
You can also set up a "scram chain" (like a cap chain, but for DPS) in your fleet. Everyone fits two scrams in their mids, DD joins a "scram chain" channel and scrams 1 down, using the extra scrams to cover logi and snowflakes. This is typically only something one uses for faction battleships, though.

In AHAC fleets and other expensive doctrines, one also uses sensor boosted HICs or recons to cover booshing.


Finally, if you're using Vexors and you're going to warp into people, you should also at least refit after getting dscan on their fleet. Against Moas, TDs are often going to be more effective than damps, and you can abuse the hell out of that (blaster Moas, if TDed, have less range with Null than you have with Javelin, which is a pretty great position to be in). You could also consider refitting neuts, as Moas do not react well to being neuted out.

Anyway, sounds like a good learning experience and an okay second fight. Keep it up!
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Kramnath

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Post 2017.05.17 12:58

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

I'd like to say thanks to Breeze for running the event, and that I thought that despite a few issues that have been covered it was a fun fleet and generally well executed. I had a great time and learned a lot from it, not least that I want to get involved in more fleets!

This was my second fleet, and having had fun playing suicide-tackle (and oddly not achieving the suicide, despite coming close) in my first I thought I'd turn up to act in the same capacity for this one. FC had other ideas and requested that I be a scout instead, which made sense given the expected large engagement and allowing more people who can fly BLAP to do so. Well, I figured that if I'm playing EVE I'm expecting a steep learning curve so why not? I highly encourage other people to just jump in, as I learned many things from the experience and had a lot of fun despite not really seeing any of the action.

First up, it's weird being a scout. The pressure for you is in finding the content, so this was a great fleet for a first timer as we were guaranteed a fight, just had to find it, but also it meant that I was far more relaxed once the fleet was engaged than when I was jumping into the unkown and expecting to get blown up any second. Obviously quite the opposite of being in the fleet body!

Second, I still need more practice with D-Scan. I spend a fair amount of time ducking into wormholes and hacking sites 1-3 holes deep so have a decent grasp on it, and had watched the basic 101 class so knew how to narrow down and try to find a target, but it doesn't come naturally yet so there were a few times I could tell things were around but not quite where, leading to a little flustering at times.

Third, another improvement point, better understanding of what ships are and what they do. D-Scan gives a name and what size of ship it is but I need to learn the distinction between a frigate, a faction frigate and an interceptor as this makes all the difference is whether an engagement is possible. Of course, that's something that comes with time, but equally possible to do a little homework to speed things along.

Overall, I think I got a very different learning experience in this role than I did as part of the main fleet, and again probably a good experience for newer folks. Not actually being involved in the major fights meant I was listening to comms, watching broadcasts and trying to figure out what happened, and without being directly involved in fighting I got to devote a lot more brainpower to listening and understanding than I would have in the heat of battle. Obviously, battle experience is probably better in the long run, but I came out knowing a lot more about the basics like positioning. Also learned what a boosh is, and that it's a thing.
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Breeze One

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Post 2017.05.17 13:36

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Appreciate that Raido, thanks!

On the subject of booshers, we did have one, Decklin in a Pontfex. However I'll again admit that I'm not experienced enough using (or, clearly, combatting them!) to really consider using them effectively. I think I even said at the start of the fleet that I probably wouldn't be using the actual Booshes just due to not being familiar enough with them to not risk screwing everything up :D (there's an evil irony to that statement given how things ended up...)

It's something I definately want to get more comfortable and experienced with. Add it to the learning experience.

Kramnath - you did great as scout! Good intel, calmly and clearly delivered. I actually wasn't aware until later that you weren't fighting with the fleet in the fights (sorry too distracted!) but if you had wanted to fight on-grid with us and (maybe!) get on some killmails that would have been fine. Pretty sure the Merlin and Condor the Cookie fleet had on-grid were their scouts, so it's very normal for scouts to join the fight. You might not change the course of the fight, but at least you see some action!
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Union Pivo

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Post 2017.05.17 15:40

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Eddie Dante wrote:During the 2nd fight, at one point someone on mumble said logi to bounce, as Decklin described a few posts above me. I felt i warped off unnescessary there since the fighting continued some more and it seemed we were coming out on top (from what i gathered on comms). Also i was about to warp back when FC called for the whole fleet to scatter. Some info on what happened there and how i shouldve handled it would be appreciated.


I think that was me. I called that logi was breaking, after I couldn't lock (we were too spread out) the only other remaining logi on field and was completely caped out. But If I remember correctly Breeze called to scater soon after.

This was also my second time flying logi. I think I did worse job than the first time, although I somehow managed to not die. In first fight people were dying so fast that usually by the time I managed to lock somebody up, he was in structure.

In the second fight at first it was going good we managed to rep the damage, not sure what happened on the field but suddenly we couldn't keep up and people stared dying despite being repd. After logi anchor went down It took me too long to reestablish cap chain and another logi went down in between. I also didn't notice that I was running out of capacitor until active modules started failing.

Thinking back I probably should have prelocked other logi pilots as soon as the first logi was targed since it would make sense that they would go after somebody else in logi, it would also help with reestablishing cap chain quickly. Maybe in normal fight also prelock the FC, and other snowflakes (booshers, ...)
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Analiese Aubernet

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Post 2017.05.17 16:28

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

If you can see ahead of time that the enemy has command destroyers, it's worth appointing a couple of people with scrams to be dedicated anti-booshers. These people can use a tab in their overview that only shows command destroyers to allow them to cut out on the clutter and focus on getting locks + scrams. They can use broadcasts from FC (hopefully) to lock up the rest of the primary damage targets.

1:1 logi:DPS is not necessarily bad, if you have the damage to break the fleet that you hope to fight. It's probably overkill for a Uni fleet though.
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Breeze One

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Post 2017.05.17 17:51

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Updated the front page with Laser's videos of the fights! Amazing stuff Laser! So, so useful as a learning tool!

Gonna go cringe at my own voice for a few minutes before I start self critiquing again, but before anyone else says it....dear god how long did it take me to realize we'd been booshed!?

It's like watching a bad horror movie where you're screaming "he's f****ing behind you you idiot!" for 10 minutes...

I think I need a prescription for my tunnel vision...
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Laser Skaron

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Post 2017.05.17 17:55

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Aaaaand, the footage is up, linked on the first page of this thread, along with additional commentary https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=186&t=104656#p864719.

Super fun fleet, 10/10 would do again!

The only thing that's not visible in the videos that I want to talk about, is our decision to slide the gate. I didn't notice it at the time, but afterwards it felt like we didn't consider terrain when engaging that. Why? Probably because that's the default stance in uni: we put ourselves up in these fleets that blob/overwhelm fewer/larger targets. I think we are used to having that numeric/speed advantage and we're not that used to attacking a position.

I think we only saw 1 option there: "attacking the gate" and we got locked into it too early.

On the other hand, everyone was green with this, everyone followed and went for it. Woohoo!
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Breeze One

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Post 2017.05.17 18:28

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

So, my additional comments post video review...

- I both hate and love this! I will be re-watching for hours and noticing new mistakes every time!

- Again, I'm so damn slow to react to the boosh

- Vexors may not be the best at switching targets but I should have tried it much, much sooner than I did anyway. I kept us on the same guy without success for 75% of the fight. Should at least have tried to get drones on their Logi once I realised we weren't breaking reps on the DD.

- As I thought, I just kept burning back to Logi with everyone anchored on me, and dragging their DPS ball back into our Logi ball to wreck us. I had ideally wanted a DD anchor originally so I didnt get distracted by too many things mid-fight - and this was exactly what happened. I was set to approach Max and completely forgot to change that setting once we reached Logi range, so I just kept burning into him.

- I think we split DPS - but its largely my fault I think. I called the primary, but was bad with broadcasts, and half way through I remember noticing another pilot with very similar name in the Cookie fleet. I locked him up just to see...and yup, he was in half shield. Calling names basically caused us to split DPS. I should have been better with broadcasts. Had we concentrated DPS better we might have broken one or two, and shifted the fight.

- Second fight especially Laser you're correct - it goes very quiet for long periods. Thats good comms discipline from the fleet, but bad FC'ing from me. Its largely exhaustion I think (its gone midnight for me at this point in the video), but still you're right - more communication would have been good.

- I also call anchor on me much later in this fight than I thought. I thought I'd called it early on. Either I didn't, or I didn't have my push to talk key on when I gave the order, because I dont hear the instruction on comms until quite late

- Other than that, sadly I cant quite see the angle on that second fight to really look at positioning, and Laser sadly dies around half way through, so I dont have too many comments on this one
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Laser Skaron

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Post 2017.05.17 18:38

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Breeze One wrote:- I both hate and love this! I will be re-watching for hours and noticing new mistakes every time!


Grab OBS. Record your own stuff for your viewing. Or use other software. After the fleet I just figured out how I can split audio into different tracks, woohoo, less keyboard/mouse sounds gon be in next one (whenever that is).

Breeze One wrote: - Other than that, sadly I cant quite see the angle on that second fight to really look at positioning, and Laser sadly dies around half way through, so I dont have too many comments on this one


Yeah. my camera was super bad in the 2nd fight, ended up mainly focusing on switching reps there. Camera work is still something I need to work on. But it was way better than last recording I made. Camera is so bad there I won't upload any of that...
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Pronto Pup

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Post 2017.05.17 20:00

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

This was my first fleet and I appreciate the opportunity. I was very surprised at the low skill requirements of the BLAP vexors and that I was able to get into one in time for the fleet. I may not have been as effective as someone with more skill (both skillbook skills and flying skills), but I did not feel completely useless in the fights, either. I don't yet understand the nuances of the strategies involved, but our FC made what we were expected to do very understandable. I learned about as much as I could have possibly absorbed in one evening. I'm looking forward to the next event.
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Kane Rhoderis

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Post 2017.05.18 06:19

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Hi EVE UNI!

First off: Thank you for the good fights! We really enjoyed it and would love to repeat this.

We scouted you ahead and our scout gave me this screenshot as intel: https://prnt.sc/f8lgp8 (13 Vexor, 1 Maller, 1 Pontifex, 8 Augorors). Because we were outnumbered and I didn't see another way to break 8 Augorors with our 10 Moas and 5 Ospreys, we set up the ambush (or should i say the amboosh? :P ) you already discussed in detail. It worked perfectly. By the time your logistics catched up, we already cleared a good amount of DPS from the field and killed the Pontifex to get rid of enemy armor links.
As soon as your logistics were in rep range, we noticed, we couldn't break your Vexors anymore, so we switched fire to the Augorors. I think the impact of Breeze as a DPS anchor burning into them was minimal, because the Moas are about 2000 m/s fast with links and would have caught them anyway in a very short time. What enabled us to break the Augorors (despite their high numbers) were 2 things: First we immadiately pinned down the logi anchor. Although we couldn't break him this resulted in all Moas and your Logis clumping up. With all Moas in optimal of all Augorors we were able to kill them by fast target switching. Second: With the lack of armor links for higher buffer and faster repairer cycle time, the augorors went down, before fully catching reps (or catching reps at all). Breeze called the scatter shortly after.

Although we had no losses in this fight (because the boosh worked so good) I'm pretty sure we would have lost without the boosh. How to prevent beeing booshed has already been discussed, so i won't comment on that. Your EWAR Strategy worked perfectly and put a lot of pressure on our logis right of the bat and they had difficulties to keep up the cap chain. If you would have ECM drones avaible at that point, we most likely would brake. As you, Breeze, already stated, target switching also would have helped (our logis commented after the fight, that EWAR was a real pain, but luckily you also relaxed them a bit by staying on the same target for so long :) ). I'm also not sure, if we would have been able to break the Augorors if they had links. Would have made things a lot more difficult at least.

I also like to say, that i like your doctrine. Rails are very good for fast target switching and you had drone navs to make the drones at least decent at target switching. Also the EWAR was SO(!) annoying to our logis. Plus I have to congratulate you for the idea to kill ecm drones with smart bombs.
I also agree with Breeze's thoughts on calling primaries: Killing the Merlin or the Hyena would have changed nothing. Calling one of our logis primary would have been the most logical decision, because they had the weakest tank and if you shoot a logi, theres one less logi to rep him, because he can't rep himself.

The second fight was much more even. If i remember correctly, you had less logi during the 2nd fight? Our main problem during that fight was that the cynabals were swarming our logistics with ecm drones. We should really adapt your smartbomb strategy :)



Thanks again for the good content that evening, hope to hear from you soon o7


PS: Please excuse my very german english :P
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Breeze One

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Post 2017.05.18 07:01

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Thanks again for the fight Kane, and thanks for taking the time to comment! Always interesting reading the other side's viewpoint.

Putting the issue of the Boosh and us warping into it to one side for a minute I think what is emerging is that the fleet did a lot right here once we were on grid. Just to summarize I think the key (general) areas of improvement are:

- Situational Awareness to notice and react to the Boosh faster
- Faster target switching to put pressure on Logi
- More focused DPS

While the boosh was obviously the winning factor in that fight, addressing the above points would have given us a much better chance of salvaging the situation.

Was a fun set of fights overall, and I know the more time passes the more I appreciate the opportunity to learn from this.

We don't get many fleet fights like this where tactics play such a key role in determining the outcome. Would love to try this again sometime! If I can still persuade anyone to follow me :lol:

Do you FC in German? I'm tempted to join one of your Wednesday public fleets :D
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Maximus Hert

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Post 2017.05.19 04:05

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Laser Skaron wrote:
Maximus Hert wrote:After watching lasers video of fleet I came to 2 conclusions:
1 I really don't like the sound of my voice.
2 I need to communicate more with my logi wing.


Dammit Maximus, SPOILERS...

The videos still require processing and are not yet shared with the public. They've so far been only shared with a few people to get feedback on what is "opsec" in them and what needs to be censored. They need some editing and will be uploaded later today along with a ton of feedback on fleet positioning, broadcasting, shot calling, overall fleet activity and so on... ton of stuff I learned from them.



oops :P i didn't link them for that reson.
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Rezda Nardieu

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Post 2017.05.19 06:02

Re: [AAR] BLAP Vexors vs Holy Cookie

Would love to try this again sometime! If I can still persuade anyone to follow me :lol:


I'd gladly fly with you again.

You take criticism in the way it's intended (constructively). You are willing to accept that you make mistakes and are not afraid to hide them, but you want to learn from them. The only people I won't fly with are the people who don't do this.

Your overall FC'ing is really good, and you have a fantastic attitude. Keep it up.
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