[AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

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Nienke Solette

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Post 2020.01.14 19:21

[AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

After a week without FCing fleets, it was the time again to push that undock button. The dish on the menu today: Rail Moas and Ospreys in a LowSec Roam. The arranged fight did not go through because of some logistical issues, we have rescheduled for a fight on the 3rd of February. I want to thank everyone for joining, I had FUN!

Roam members (18)
SPOILER WARNING!
Analee Tsasa - Moa, 2IC
Anidien Dallacort - Osprey
Apo Bong - Atron
Flash Prime - Osprey
Flatline Kasenumi - Atron
Giacomo Belenos - Osprey
Gislind Havel - Moa
Jonathan Gusborn - Moa
Larkvi - Moa, 3IC
Marcel Eriker - Moa
Martindale - Moa
Nienke Solette - Moa
Tim NineOwls - Osprey
Tolerin Escipion - Osprey, Logi FC
Tungon Akeela - Moa
Tyrion Edwardes - Moa
Zairnix Onren - Moa
manda doomsslayer - Moa

Please let me know if something is missing/wrong in this list and I'll edit in!


Form-up took longer than expected because we had a first-time scout who was 1) limited to flying an Atron and 2) having Mumble problems. Also,
another Unista was a bit late to the party. Next time, I need to put/link scout fits in the forum announcement post's description so that low skill point scouts can better prepare. Furthermore, I need to delegate latecomers to 2IC/3IC so that I can focus on getting the fleet going. In this case, the latecomer was lucky because of our scouts who needed a bit more time to prepare.

At form-up, some fleet members thought of bringing some points on their Moas and mentioned that over comms. Great thinking of them and I fully agreed. I asked two DDs to x up and we brought a bit more points which we needed.

The first destination was Akidagi since I had asked the Fleet Support program to put some reship contracts up in the neighbouring system (Ichorya). It was a huge improvement compared to earlier LowSec Roams as can be seen from the amount of content we had this fleet. While travelling to Akidagi, our scouts started to look for content.

On the recordings, I noticed that we can use a bit more talky talk. For the next fleet, I think I need to explain more about... basically, everything that happens. Furthermore, I assigned a vanguard on our way to Akidaki. In this case, before any kills/losses but yeah, I want to do this before undocking and preferably the ones who x-ed up for bringing points. Also, I plainly forgot to use the drones provided with the Moa. *facepalms*

We also did a bit of LSC promotion by going through Eugales. I recommend everyone to join at the Round Table coming Sunday!

Kills and Losses
Scouts reported 16 in local in ALD. Long D-scan report was, and I quote, "crowded". Ships listed were: one Malediction, two Ares', one Caldari Navy Hookbill, one Tristan, one Osprey Navy Issue and a Wolf. I asked our scouts to check the plexes, the ONI and one Ares were in a Large. I asked the scout to get tackle while the fleet was still warping to the ALD gate. I asked the vanguard to prepare to jump and asked how far the plex was from the gate. Definitely an improvement compared to the fleets a bit more than a week ago.

Plex was reported 5AU from the gate and I called the vanguard to Jump On Contact. After landing I asked the fleet to get an Atron which was warping off. Not sure why, because it would have got us a weapons timer...

Video 1
(21:09:58) Aldranette
Atron -4.06m
Atron -1.96m

Scout had pointed the ONI and I called the fleet to jump through and warp to our scout. Unfortunately, our first scout died rather quickly (14s) and the distance of the ONI and the Ares from the plex was only called after the fleet was warping to the plex. We landed 130km from the ONI and 220km from the Ares. I called anchoring up (also an improvement from earlier fleets) and asked the scout to reship in Ichoriya. Meanwhile, an Orthrus and an Imperial Navy Slicer landed at 100km. I asked the fleet to align to the NEN gate. The Orthrus was, unfortunately, able to catch our second scout, after which I warped the fleet to the NEN gate. The earlier reported Malediction landed at 100km just as we warped off. In hindsight, we might have got a good fight here, because gfs were thrown in local and the INS's pod jumped through the NEN gate.

While our scouts were reshipping I decided to wait for them in Akidagi at 100km from the sun. The new destination was Pynekastoh.

After re-shipping, we got on our way again. Our scout reported a Praxis and a Dominix on Long-range D-scan in NEN and an Imperial Navy Slicer jumping into AKI. We were just landing on the gate so I called to anchor up. Unfortunately, the INS uncloaked on the other side of the gate. As evaluation: we could never catch the INS unless we would alpha it. Next time, I should focus on the situation in the system we're about to jump into.

A Maller landed on our gate. Not sure why (probably to catch the Maller), but I decided to let the fleet jump into NEN and called for the vanguard to uncloak and orbit the gate at 10km. Nothing came in so I called to align to the HIK gate. When warping the fleet, a Macharial appeared on grid. The fleet held on the gate and our scout reported ten in local and a clear d-scan. The Macharial followed us. I called to pre-lock it and wait with engaging. The fleet put its Hard(ners on) and I called to anchor up. I noticed way too late that the Macharial was flashy and that we could engage without taking gate-guns. However, I still waited with engaging because of the weapons timer. I also noticed it was Bundspecht who is known for giving good fights at Ky's Sunday Funday fleets in the past.

A Praxis, Gnosis and Dominix then landed on our gate. I had a couple of options: 1) try to warp out and risk someone getting tackled or 2) engaging on the gate, risking gate-guns and losing more ships than just warping out or 3) jumping through the gate and see what happens. I chose option 3 because I thought three battleships and a battlecruiser was too much for us to fight. While jumping the scout reported a Sacrilege and a Vigilant on D-scan at the sun. Because my brain was focussed on the bigger threat following us, I think it decided to plainly ignore that information.

Video 2
(21:25:26) Hikkoken
Osprey -9.11m
Osprey -8.64m
Gnosis +58.04m
Osprey -9.11m
Osprey -9.11m
Moa -23.75m
Moa -82.44m
Moa -32.94m
Moa -79.94m
Moa -25.22m
Moa -36.34m
Capsule -0.01m

After jumping, we still had a couple of options. The wise call would have been to warp away and keep losses at a minimum. However, at this point, I wanted some action and pew-pew. Despite the odds, I, therefore, decided to stay cloaked and see what our gate would poop out. I took most of the cloak timer to assess the situation. When I started talking, we had a Dominix, a Praxis, a Gnosis, a Machariel, a Maller and an Armageddon on the grid. The last ship was blue to me personally because past me thought that was a good idea... I edited my contacts list to prevent this for future fleets.

I prepped the fleet by calling the Gnosis primary and the Praxis secondary (because I thought the Maller and the battleships looked too tanky). Just as the timer expired, I called to anchor up and cycle the prop mods. I started burning away, which was in hindsight the wrong call. I should have put an orbit around the Gnosis at 15km. I asked the Logi to move away from the gate to prevent them from getting primaried. Only after this I realised my mistake and started to orbit the Gnosis at 10km. At this point, another Hecate warped on to the grid.

The recording shows a couple of interesting things. 1) Only a part of the fleet (mostly DD I think) anchored up properly. For the next fleet, I think this can be improved by doing an anchor check after undocking for both DD and Logi squads. 2) Logi was primaried and we lost two of our five Ospreys relatively quick. I don't know what Logi comms was like then (Logi FC, I'd love your feedback on this one!) but I would like Logi FC to be more vocal and communicate over full fleet comms (and not by whispering). 3) Broadcasts were generally in time. Big compliments to the fleet!

At the point that we had one Logi left, FC went into 10% shield. I noticed this and aligned to a random thing in my warp out tab. I called that I needed to bounce and 2IC needed to take over. I warped off with approximately 80% hull left (living on the edge ^^). Unfortunately, when the Praxis was in hull it managed to warp off (didn't we have point for this?).

2IC called the Hecate primary. Shortly after, 2IC needed to bounce and we had one or even none Logi left. 3IC decided to call scatter to prevent more losses. Not sure how low the Hecate was at this point, but 3IC did his job by calling scatter. We exchanged gfs and I gathered the fleet again at a safe to see what was left, which was a grand total of four Moas and one Osprey. Our next goal: reshipping at Ichoriya.

Video 3
(21:33:46) Nennamaila
Osprey -9.11m
Moa -36.08m

This part was ugly. Our scout reported two Hecates at the NEN gate. I will directly say that I should have rerouted to take the Hallanen -> Enaluri -> Akidagi to prevent the kills in NEN. However, my brain was stupid and lazy. I warped the fleet to the NEN gate without waiting for +1 info from our scout. While warping, 27 were reported in NEN local and gate was red. I called the capsules to make best speed to Ichoriya, which was a reasonable call because of insta-align. On-grid with our scout: two flashy, six oranges. Ships: Jackdaw, Stiletto, Harpy, Retribution, two Scalpels. All from RvB. Since we were on the gate and some of the ships were jumping, I decided to go full Leroy Jenkins and just jump into NEN. There were three on the grid (Hecate, Stiletto and the Retribution). I should have cold-warped everyone immediately but somehow decided to wait and see if they jumped.

Of course, the opposite happened and when warping off, there were fifteen frigs/destroyers on the gate. As I said, ugly and definitely could have been prevented the loss of an Osprey and a Moa. The fleet made best speed to our reshipping point and had a bio-break after this.

Video 4
(21:55:16) Akidagi
Abaddon +242.7m

When returning, we had four Ospreys, two scouts and seven Moas left. We needed a new vanguard and new points and that was fixed rather quickly. I decided to see if I could create content and bring the fleet home safely. Our scout reported five on local in AKI with a clear grid and d-scan. After a bit of hunting our scout found an Abaddon on a Large plex 27AU from the gate. Called the vanguard to jump through and warp. When the scout got point I followed with the fleet. Our scout did a great job at giving intel on both 1) the Abaddon having a Micro Jump Drive (scout lost point and Abaddon was 100km off our scout) and 2) the Abaddon warping to the Sun afterwards. Because of this, the main part of the fleet could warp directly to the sun (at different distances) and catch the Abaddon. Kudos to our Logi on keeping our Atron alive too! ^^

Video 5
(22:10:50) Oinasiken
Atron -1.03m
Atron -1.65m
Osprey -9.09m
Osprey -9.11m
Caldari Navy Hookbill +22.11m
Osprey -9.11m
Hecate +63.88m
Osprey -17.61m
Moa -34.68m
Kikimora +157.9m
Moa -21.54m
Moa -50.51m
Moa -28.43m
Moa -24.66m
Moa -24.61m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

The fleet continued on the road back to Amygnon. Our scout reported an RvB Kikimora 14km from the Pynekastoh gate in Oinasiken. It jumped through and I let the fleet orbit the gate at 10km with hardners on and one cycle of prop-mod to attempt a catch on the Kiki. On the other side of the gate, our scout reported a Tengu at 100km from the gate. The Kiki warped away and I kept changing the fleet between approaching the gate and orbiting the gate at 10km, depending on whether there could jump ships into PYN. Our scout then reported a Scalpel and a Hecate on the gate in OIN, later to be followed by another six or seven ships from RvB. Our scout had to jump back into PYN because it lost gate cloak and reported that some of the RvB squad were following. I called to anchor up, cycle the prop-mods for two cycles, put the hardners on and asked the Logi to burn away from the gate. Our scout went back into OIN to get eyes again. Somehow, our other scout got killed by a Jackdaw in OIN, don't know exactly what happened there but eh, that happens I guess?

The scout that went back into OIN reported a Retribution and a Stiletto 10km from the gate and 8-10 flashy RvB destroyers and cruisers at 8000km (probably at a different gate or Player-Owned Structure). At this point, I wanted the next fight and see what we could get in OIN, so I slow-boated to the gate while I mentioned that we would try to get a fight and stay cloaked after jumping through. The scout then asked permission to tackle the Retribution because the gate cloak ran out. Since the fleet was close to the gate I gave permission, called the fleet to turn the prop-mod on and jump into OIN. In hindsight, I should have asked the scout the distance between the gate and the Retribution. Furthermore, I would have liked to know the fleet composition of the RvB squad which was 8000km+ off. Now, I only got that information after I jumped the fleet into OIN.

On-grid, I saw the Retribution around 80km off the gate and I called it primary. Here, instead, I should have let the scout burn back to the fleet and start the usual anchor up, hardners on, prop-mods on for x cycles and Logi burn away commands. Then, the RvB squad warped on top of us. Ships warping in; two Scalpels, one Svipul, one Kikimora, one Imperial Navy Slicer, two Harpys, one Hecate, one Jackdaw, one Caldari Navy Hookbill, one Crucifier and one Stiletto. Here, I doubted what to primary and was slow/unclear with my commands (called to uncloak and called the Kikimora as primary pretty late without a broadcast and without calling a name). The whole RvB squad jumped through with only the Retribution and a random Garmur left on the grid at 170+km. A different Kikimora decloaked (probably went from PYN into OIN?) and jumped back into OIN before we could do anything to it. Only at this point, I called to anchor up.

At this point, I could have asked someone to check local and see whether the RvB squad was jumping back into OIN. I didn't and was, therefore, caught off-guard when the RvB squad uncloaked with even greater numbers. I called a Kikimora primary for the bling, which got enough distance just before we were able to take it down *sad face*. I called a different Kiki as secondary, but that one was now at a bigger distance too. Switched to a Caldari Navy Hookbill as primary. Meanwhile, I was trying to position the fleet somewhere reasonable, keeping my eye on my own health + spinny things and watching the watchlist for our Logi's health.

We took down the CNI and I called a Hecate as primary. I noticed my distance from the gate and started to approach our unfriendly content-creators. I noticed reps coming in, but didn't know which of their ships were Logi back then (now I know I should have primaried the two Scalpels on the grid). After we took down the Hecate I called the first Kikimora as primary again. At this point, we lost our Logi and I decided that this was the point where the whole fleet dies. We tried taking down another Svipul with the five Moas which were left but had no success. 2IC and 3IC were down and FC started to get hits too, which was for me a good point to call scatter. One Moa was saved during this operation. ^^

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 544,628,943.82
ISK Lost: 599,883,718.02
ISK Delta: -55,254,774.2
Efficiency: 47.586%

Overall evaluation
    (Positive stuff)
  • Fleet members thought of bringing more points before undocking
  • Reships available at Ichorya were awesome sauce! This kept the fleet running so that we could get another proper fight
  • FC did a better job in anchoring and broadcasting compared to earlier fleets
  • Repair broadcasts were generally good, compliments to the fleet!

    ~~ (Neutral stuff)
  • Improved usage of the vanguard a bit and I asked for distances from the gate more often. Improvement is still possible, though

    (Learnings)
  • FC needs to 1) put/link scout fits in the forum announcement post's description; 2) delegate latecomers to 2IC/3IC; 3) assign a Vanguard before undocking and 4) do an anchor check after undocking, both for DD and for Logi.
  • Moas have drones... Use them!
  • I think more experienced Unistas might be able to explain more. Explain what our scout is doing, explain which ship is what, explain what our goal is, explain more about the ships we are using. (this includes me, too!)
  • Be careful with engaging targets just before jumping through a gate because of the weapons timer. It's a recipe for losing your scout+vanguard
  • I would love if Logi FC would call repairs over main fleet comms instead of whispering
  • Despite having points on our Moas, a Praxis warped off... Bummer
  • We could have made better use of local to see system spikes
  • Scalpels are Logi and should be primaried
Last edited by Nienke Solette on 2020.01.15 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Yrgrasil

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Post 2020.01.14 21:42

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

i'm not going into a lot of points since i didn't watched all actually, but some points i noticed

Nienke Solette wrote:as the timer expired, I called to anchor up and cycle the prop mods. I started burning away, which was in hindsight the wrong call. I should have put an orbit around the Gnosis at 15km. I asked the Logi to move away from the gate to prevent them from getting primaried. Only after this I realised my mistake and started to orbit the Gnosis at 10km.


yeah, i can only suggest to read the wiki sites and make some notes about them, e.g. https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Rail_Moas#Implementation

The tactics for the Rail Moas are largely an extrapolation from that of Good Omens. When facing larger, or equally sized opponents such as Battlecruisers, you will want to fight at relatively close range, aim to use your higher damage, better tracking Antimatter ammunition, and take advantage of your mid-range to switch targets within a large fleet very quickly and easily, to break Logistics reps, or to target logistics ships themselves. Depending on the size of ship you are engaging, you may wish to try and get under their guns, or to maximize your own damage application by minimising transversal


---

also i watched parts of the last video.

First of all, you were swarmed by a ton of small faster ships which can decide where they want to be, also you had no control (get a hyena or so if you can). Moa's are little tanks and normally everyone wants to get to their logis first (blap osprey fitting is utter trash for them, but i gave up on that front). So what you really want is to have the logi basically anchored on the moas itself in that case. That way the enemy has to be near you to some extend, and the reps get also a little bit better.

It was often silent, nobody really wants people like me who call targets ten times but its handy if you call secondary and tertiary at least. Often it ended that the primary warped, got out of range and you had to search first an new one. Lots of seconds wasted here.

Somewhen around 8:50 you propped on but didn't called it.

While the kikis are always good target calls (just to get rid of their dps at least), you ignored everything kinda squishy as in ceptors, slicers. Since you were not kiting them i assume it wouldn't have made really a difference because of tracking actually.
I don't know if switching ammo would have given you the kiki kill actually since it takes a bit of time, but as it passed 30km it wasn't really needed to stay on it with antimatter.

lastly, also from the wiki entry again:

Against smaller sized ships such as Frigates or Destroyers, where tracking could be a concern, or against rarer fleets of brawling fit battlecruisers, the Moas will most often burn away from an opponent, to minimize transversal, force them to chase you, and allow you to apply your medium guns from range
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Tyrion Edwardes

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Post 2020.01.15 02:08

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Only stuck around for the first half so can only give feedback on that portion of the fleet. All-in-all good job Nienke for getting the squad around and taking the fight(s) and good job to Larkvi for getting the fleet disengaged, reformed, and out of the area after it was apparent we weren't going to be able to stay on grid. As far as the gate fight with the battleships went the only points I have are:

1) After the Gnosis and the Praxis it was called that the Hecate was primary. I remember it being 60km+ away and the video confirmed, and I remember thinking...there's targets closer to the fleet that might be just as easy to kill. Might be something to think of next time around. If the primary is going to be something farther off than then a command / reminder to the fleet to switch out ammunition to the long range ammo (can't remember the type right now but know we had one with a falloff range of 65km on the Moas) would be good to remember.

2) Not something I started considering myself until a few months ago but overheating is HUGE, but I didn't hear anything about it at form-up and didn't hear it called for during engagement. Especially on these Moas with 2 shield boosters a call / reminder to overheat could not only have increased EHP but also logi's ability to keep fleetmates alive and allow us to stay on grid longer. A couple of cycles of overheating DPS could also have helped take down targets a bit quicker (might have gotten the Praxis, might not have), etc.

3) I remember when I first started flying in NoP fleets I would stay on grid until I either died or someone told me to scatter, but its often a good idea to remind people if they aren't holding and logi isn't repping them fast enough that they should align out and bounce if they have to. A lot of the newer members wouldn't know to do that or think to do it, rather sticking to "FC said do this so that's what I'm going to do".

Glad the fleet kept going and you guys got some nice kills afterwards (kudos on the kiki).
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Larkvi

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Post 2020.01.15 09:47

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

3) I remember when I first started flying in NoP fleets I would stay on grid until I either died or someone told me to scatter, but its often a good idea to remind people if they aren't holding and logi isn't repping them fast enough that they should align out and bounce if they have to. A lot of the newer members wouldn't know to do that or think to do it, rather sticking to "FC said do this so that's what I'm going to do".


I really needed to learn this lesson myself. My reship did not have enough boosters for my (bad) cap skills, and I was completely out of cap for the last third of the battle with the kikimoras, and despite trying my best to finish off the wounded kikimora, I could no longer hold tackle or keep close enough to consistently apply damage. In hindsight, I should have warped off grid, since at that point my Moa was mostly useless. I could easily have been a second survivor of that round of the fight, and it would have made essentially zero impact on our on-grid dps.

And yeah, overheating would have been potentially huge: we were fine with losing the fleet anyways, so hollowing the ships out on the way down to increase DPS/reps would have been a good call. Last night, a QRF led by Ergan fought a WT Ikitursa on Amy gate in Juf, and we had it down to 25% hull before it managed to jump the gate. If we had remembered to call for overheating weapons, we could have had it.

I had a lot of fun. My first "command" experience, and I was in command just long enough to call scatter before I went down myself (three of us were tackled and were not able to get off grid, but I don't think we would have done any good staying longer, since Logi were broken. I am glad we were able to reform and get another couple of fights).

I want to commend our excellent scouts—we had good and consistent intel, and they got us a nice kill in the form of that Abbadon.

I had a discussion in chat with some of the other newbros afterwards (a first-time scout and first-time Logi), who seemed to think they had done worse than they should have/worse than expected. I made they point that us losing this fleet was basically homework for us not losing more important fleets, and in both cases, they got to work with and observe more experienced members of the same role working, and I think that is invaluable. I was receiving reps before even signalling for them, so I think that Logi was on the ball for those of us on watchlist, and no one really expects first-time light tackle to do other than be blown up, since it is a stupidly hard role despite it often being filled by newbros. (Also, compared to my first scouting experience, where my not knowing my job contributed significantly to us losing an entire weekend of incursions and a large portion of a fleet that we were not planning to welp, they were practically aces. :P )

It was a fun fleet, and I look forward to more roams with Nienke as FC in the future.
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Tolerin Escipion

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Post 2020.01.15 22:16

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

I was the logi FC, so I'm to blame and not Tim. Here's what I remember, from a logi point of view, with some references when things were happening in the videos.

At first, knowing there were several newbros, and one was in logi, my two biggest worries were getting cap chain properly explained, and watchlists distribution done. For the watchlist, and dued to our numbers, to keep things simple, everyone was to have logis, FCs (2IC, etc) and scouts on their watchlist. Then each logi would select as many as posible until full watchlists following different orders (different pilots were to go: up-down, down-up, middle-up; middle-down, etc) in hopes everyone would be at least on 2 watchlists. Not much more was said, didn't think about talking about logi anchor or to ask about if we should not warp with fleet and warp at a distance instead (1st mistake).


Hikkoken encounter:
At the start, I was going to call for anchor, but since logi anchor hadn't been decided nor explain before hand, so I didn't say anything not to clutter coms and make things confusing. Shortly after the engagment started, 3 packs were formed (3:00 aprox), so I was happy nobody had anchored on me because I was at about 30km from the main pack (not a bad distance), but poorly situated because a Macharial close by burned straight to me. Not too long went by until I was down, and another logi to enemy drones (almost at the same time). At that point, I wispered for logi to ajust cap chain, anounced that 2 logi were down over full coms and warped out. Then, other 2 logis were also taken out more or less at the same time, again, with drones mainly. I missunderstood that all logi were out, and said so over coms, when there was still one left (another mistake).

Akidagi encounter:
FC called for everyone to warp to the sun a different distances, here I probably should have called for logi to wait until point was establish and warped to that pilot at range. Again, since this tactic hadn't been discused previously and unsure if all logi pilots knew how and could cancel warp in time, and if such decision was going to be ok with the FC, I decided best all together than devided. Problem created by such decision and warping at different ranges is that, 2 logis were partialy out of cap chain range, so cap chain wasn't optimized.

Oinasiken encounter
Pretty much more of the same, at the begining of the engagment we lost a scout, not really sure how (didn’t even see a broadcast for reps and I suppose because the scout didn’t have a chance broadcast for them). Then several ships warped in and some landed between the DD group and logi group (7:41 aprox) and went straight for us. Luckyly vangard logi and fleet logi weren’t together, but still in cap range, so we were able to hold a bit, but first logi would soon be down. At that point, enemy drones were on the remaining logi, but reps were more or less holding. Then, enemy's target/focus changed, some damage was focused on logi and again, one logi down, pretty much they burned through armor and hull in less than 1s (8:49). At this point I called that logi was not holding, mostly because the two remaining were out of cap chain range. Cap chain was reestablish quickly I think to remember, but at approaching the other logi, both of us were being targeted. And again, from shield to pod in about 1s, 3rd logi down. Soon after, the last logi was out, again in 1s, and I called out that there was no logi left.
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Nienke Solette

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Post 2020.01.16 02:01

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Tolerin Escipion wrote:I was the logi FC, so I'm to blame and not Tim.

No one to blame, everyone makes mistakes. As long as we learn from them, I think it's totally fine to make mistakes ^^

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Because of RL, I haven't got the time yet to read through it all, but I'll respond to it as soon as possible!
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Anidien Dallacort

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Post 2020.01.16 06:16

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Thanks Nienke for the great fleet! I had a ton of fun.

You got me into a Logi. Not that doing such was hard to twist me into - I have a lot of experience playing healer classes in MMOs. But this was my first EVE logi role, and I felt right at home. There are certainly differences from the like of playing a Cleric in Everquest, but I still felt right at home. 10/10 would do again, as long as I mix some DD i now and then.

Even with whelping twice, I would say the fleet went pretty well. For sure that first whelp against the battleships was more "we've been roaming without firing a shot so let's just do this", and do it we did, and got a kill out of it. The only thing I would have to say for improvement on that fight - if there is a secondary reshipping point from the origin, please have it in the MOTD - while I'm bouncing around in a capsule and you are still fighting, neither of us have much communication ability.

Very well done with the Abbadon, the plan to spread out a bit over the star (warp at different distances) was well called to try to snag him. The learning point here - your call to warp to the sun was just that, not "warp warp warp", which the video shows was late called when you were already in warp. I was a bit confused if that was an actual warp command. It didn't help that I hit a MASSIVE lag spike just at that moment in time, so actually landed on the sun, and for a time, to me, it appeared I was the only pilot at the sun.

That lag spike, by the way, was a primary reason for the cap chain issues in logi during that fight. My lag spike actually ended just after others were talking about cap issues, at which point I was able to jump in and link up the chain to my two logibros. Just a bit of bad luck there, but I hesitated calling it in coms, because I honestly wasn't sure I was in the right place. Just a bad series of events, though it all turned out well with a kill and no losses.

The third fight- from the perspective of the logi wing, which was primaried, it felt like it was as much of a LEEEROY JEEENNKINS as the battleship fight. After watching the video, I think we could have held, if logi hadn't gone down so fast. The enemy landed on the gate, then warped off, then came back - right on top of the logi. DD at that point started trying to pull range, but in doing so, left the logi wing to the wolves. That's not so much a point on the DD wing - noting that I'm still inexperienced in PvP, after watching the video, I think the play was for logi to burn TO and THROUGH the DD Wing, and DD wing directly to the enemy, trying to set up the (Enemy) > (DD) > (Logi) positioning we typically want. Force them to decide to stay on the logi and take the DD wing at close range with little positional command relative to DD, or switch to DD (at which point we may have actually taken the field, if logi stayed up).

Which brings me to the final point - Tolerin, thanks for stepping up to be Logi FC! I certainly wasn't ready to do so on my first logi fleet. But I thought I heard the call during formup for Logi FC to be Logi anchor. My original feedback, was going to be that logi comms was too quiet, and Logi FC should communicate more - especially when Logi FC as anchor, is turning prop mods on and off - because I was certainly anchored on Logi FC, and was constantly playing catch up trying to match your prop mod usage (which is why it may have seemed I wasn't anchored, I was constantly falling back to 3500 or so before engaging MWD again).

But it all makes sense now that nobody knew they were Logi anchor! We were all kind of sitting ducks, because everyone was trying to follow.


Best advice I can give to any Logi FC (or really FC in general) - don't be afraid to speak up. You are in charge and your wing or fleet will listen to you. It doesn't have to be the right decision, especially when we all know we are all learning, but make SOME decision. Better everyone follow the leader to a fireball of a ship, than nobody really knowing what is going on!


Thanks again for the great fun!
Anidien Dallacort - Teacher, Mentor, Sophomore

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Nienke Solette

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Post 2020.01.16 13:02

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Again, thanks to all of you who provided their perspectives and feedback! I saw a couple of points which were the same as the learnings in my original post, so will try to not repeat those. A summary of other learnings I got from all your feedback:

  • Rail Moas need webs for frigate control
  • Usually Logi should go to and through the DD wing as Anidien stated, but at the third engagement, I think Yrgasil's anchoring on DD would have made more sense because of the frigates
  • I should call primary, secondary, tertiary and call it often.
  • When range between DD and target increases, I should consider swapping ammo
  • Go for squishy targets like Interceptors and Slicers
  • While I read the doctrine wiki before fleets, I don't act according to wiki descriptions on it. I think this is part of gaining experience, time will tell if I'll improve in this
  • I should call overheating earlier, preferably even call pre-heating modules
  • When engaging, I should remember the fleet to bounce if necessary
  • I should put the reshipping station in the MOTD
@Larkvi: I saw your comment about the cap boosters and will look into that. Maybe the fit just needs more cap boosters in the cargo hold? (I'm not sure though). Next, I think you've got the right mindset and I like it, keep it up!

@Tolerin: Yeah I initially misidentified the Logi FC in this AAR, sorry for that, that's totally on me. You did a good job in identifying mistakes and learning from it, my compliments for that. For future fleets, I should indicate Logi FC what the standing order is for Logi anchoring and keep in mind that I need to call it when Logi anchor should do something else in a specific engagement. Apparently, this (and a massive lag spike) caused some cap chain issues. You identified correctly that different warp-in distances aren't viable with cap chains. (Logi-)FC should call for Logi to warp in later and at one set distance in this case.

@Anidien: Don't hesitate to call lag-spikes in comms. A tip here is to just state in the third person (there is no I in the fleet!) that you should be left out of the cap chain and call it again when you can rejoin the chain (this is everything fleet needs to know, KISS principle ^^). Personally, I prefer you to do that over full fleet comms, but there are FCs who want you to whisper it to your fellow Logibros.
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Tim NineOwls

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Post 2020.01.16 14:09

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Probably just exposing my inexperience but following up on the comment that we could perhaps have won if the logi squad were not taken out first;

Would it have helped for the DD squad to warp in ahead of the logi by a few seconds ? Presumably opposition would then have to retarget to take out logi or focus on DDs who could have had an opportunity to optimise range with logi support.

An associated question; when you 'warp to fleet member within x distance' is the position predictable. I mean are you always the distance off back along the warp in route or is it random in some way? And is the distance off random to some degree? I also think that the warp is to the position the member was at when warp was started, not where they are when you land.

I am trying to build up a check list of things to watch. So far its a list of the things I have done wrong. Hopefully fewer extra entries each time out
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Anidien Dallacort

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Post 2020.01.16 14:20

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Tim NineOwls wrote:Probably just exposing my inexperience but following up on the comment that we could perhaps have won if the logi squad were not taken out first;

Would it have helped for the DD squad to warp in ahead of the logi by a few seconds ? Presumably opposition would then have to retarget to take out logi or focus on DDs who could have had an opportunity to optimise range with logi support.

An associated question; when you 'warp to fleet member within x distance' is the position predictable. I mean are you always the distance off back along the warp in route or is it random in some way? And is the distance off random to some degree? I also think that the warp is to the position the member was at when warp was started, not where they are when you land.

I am trying to build up a check list of things to watch. So far its a list of the things I have done wrong. Hopefully fewer extra entries each time out


In the case of the last fight, the opposition landed after we landed on the gate - we weren’t warping onto them, so delaying warp wouldn’t have done much.

Warp to member does indeed warp to the location of the member at initiation. It can be used to create a predictable landing point, if you understand the relative positioning. For example, if the positioning is (you) > (enemy +50) > (fleet member +150) and you warp to your fleet member at 100, you will land on top of the enemy. But if you swing yourself to the other side of the lineup, keeping your fleet member at 150 distance and the enemy 50 from the fleet member - (You) > (Fleet member +150) > (enemy + 200), you end up 100 from the enemy with the same warp to 100 on the fleet member.

ALL warps have a 2500m sphere, centered on the target point of the warp, that you land in. Note that for large objects like stations, the warp target isn’t really a point, but the closest point to that object considered to be 0 to that objet. But for smaller objects like ships, you are going to land within 2500m in a random direction, to the ship you warped to.
Anidien Dallacort - Teacher, Mentor, Sophomore

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Gunny Corrigan

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Post 2020.01.16 17:37

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Five flashybois on a gate and you primary the non-flashy Gnosis and take gateguns for the rest of the fight? Was that deliberate or because your overview is such a disco of flashing colours that the one row that isn't flashing looks like it is? I think you'll thank your eyes and any latent tendency towards epilepsy if you just didn't flash anything. That'd be my preference anyway.

Edit because that looked like a bit critical - easily done, I hate flashy overviews, if this is the Eve Uni default then we can we please stop?

Gunny.
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Tim NineOwls

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Post 2020.01.16 20:11

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Thanks Anidien for the clarification of 'warp to'. I hoped it was that rather than a circle about the member. Seems a bit of an omission from the game mechanics that you cant jump over the member, only to the near side wrt yourself, unless there another subtlety that I have missed.
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Anidien Dallacort

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Post 2020.01.16 21:10

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Tim NineOwls wrote:Thanks Anidien for the clarification of 'warp to'. I hoped it was that rather than a circle about the member. Seems a bit of an omission from the game mechanics that you cant jump over the member, only to the near side wrt yourself, unless there another subtlety that I have missed.


Positioning and range control is a CRUCIAL aspect of PvP.

There are limits to what you can use as a target to warp to. Getting something you can warp to, in the right position, is a key element of controlling the battlefield.

Likewise, ensuring your opponent has nothing they can properly warp to, in order to go where you don’t want them, is crucial.

Being able to stack your opponents so they can’t actually warp to you is good field control. Being able to warp past a fleet member to a given range, would take away the need to get a fleet member into the right range and position.
Anidien Dallacort - Teacher, Mentor, Sophomore

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Nienke Solette

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Post 2020.01.16 22:06

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Gunny Corrigan wrote:Five flashybois on a gate and you primary the non-flashy Gnosis and take gateguns for the rest of the fight? Was that deliberate or because your overview is such a disco of flashing colours that the one row that isn't flashing looks like it is? I think you'll thank your eyes and any latent tendency towards epilepsy if you just didn't flash anything. That'd be my preference anyway.

Edit because that looked like a bit critical - easily done, I hate flashy overviews, if this is the Eve Uni default then we can we please stop?

Gunny.


1) We had Logi and I thought we could take the gate guns. I don't know if we would have been able to stay longer on grid if we went for the flashies. 2) Gnosis was (I think) a squishyer target. 3) I rather like the EVE-Uni Overview, but you're right that this is a matter of personal preference.
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Tungon Akeela

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Post 2020.01.16 23:58

Re: [AAR] 2020-01-13 // Rail Moa / Ospreys LowSec Roam

Tim NineOwls wrote:I am trying to build up a check list of things to watch. So far its a list of the things I have done wrong. Hopefully fewer extra entries each time out

I am doing the exact same thing. There are so many things you could do wrong, it is amazing.

And just to let you all know:
I do like taking fleets with all of you. I just want to have fun with this game. Which is why I honestly respect all people taking special roles in the newbro fleets (FCs, ICs, scouts, logi, etc...).
I just want to have a good time and fly DD. But I honestly do respect the motivation people put up in more demanding roles like FC, logi, scouts, etc..
So please keep up with what you do. And if you make mistakes. My mistakes are probably much worse but since I am "only" DD nobody notices it.

I really have fun making mistakes with you and learning.
Waiting for the next fleet with all of you!
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