E-UNI OOC Student Hauling Program

[Turhan Bey]

The issue with assembled containers (ships included) is that they make it impossible to re-contract.

It is quite possible to place a shrink-wrapped assembled ship into another courier contract, thus sub-contracting it. There doesn't seem to be a limit to the levels of subcontracting, or if there is one then it is further than I really cared to test.

See my post above yours.

[KC Kamikaze]

Is it standard procedure to charge the same amount per jump regardless of how much cargo is carried?

It doesn't seem ... i'll say fair for lack of a better word to those trained up to freighters to move 600km3 of goods in at least twice the amount of time it takes a t1 industrial to move 10km3 for the same price does it?

I mean ultimately it's up to the hauler to accept, and my alt has a charon, but no way i'm accepting contracts that require that much time and effort for the same price as the small ones I can do with my blockade runner. Just a thought that the type of ship required should influence the payout a bit.

[Turhan Bey]

The rate of 250K/jump is a standard freighter rate, based off the original/old "full standard" freighter rate of 500K/jump.

I considered having some kind of rate table for smaller volumes, such as only paying 200K/jump for Orca-sized loads and 100K/jump for industrial-sized loads. But it is just less hassle to simply use a flat rate for all sizes. And in the end, this program is more to provide students an easy way to help E-UNI and one another, instead of a profit-making venture. (Those who want to make much better isk are encouraged to try joining RFF or Push-X with their alts.)

And as mentioned, personal contracts are quite welcome to pay different rates if they wish.

[Pehuen]

The issue with assembled containers (ships included) is that they make it impossible to re-contract.

It is quite possible to place a shrink-wrapped assembled ship into another courier contract, thus sub-contracting it. There doesn't seem to be a limit to the levels of subcontracting, or if there is one then it is further than I really cared to test.

See my post above yours.

So I did some testing and finally logged my tests:

Spoiler

Test 1:
A single Condor fitted out with nothing in it’s Cargo hold
1st Courier Contract => Successful (this would be the original student)
2nd Courier Contract => Successful (this would be your alt)
3rd Courier Contract => Failed with this message (this would be your alt re-contracting it for whatever reason)

Conclusion: Assembled ships are treated as modules as far as re-contracting is concerned. The double wrap restriction is being applied to the Plastic Wrap and not the fitted Condor.

Test 2
Repackaged container (Mobile Depot)
1st Courier Contract => Successful
2nd Courier Contract => Successful
3rd Courier Contract => Failed with this message

Conclusion: Packaged containers are the same as modules; the wrap restriction is being applied to the Plastic Wrap.

Test 3
Multiple ship modules; repackaged (non containers modules that require ammo/charges)
1st Courier Contract => Successful
2nd Courier Contract => Successful
3rd Courier Contract => Failed with this message

Conclusion: Confirming that a triple wrap isn’t possible even with just modules

Test 4
Assembled Giant Secure Container with goods in it
1st Courier Contract => Successful
2nd Courier Contract => Failed with this message

Conclusion: An assembled container acts as a Plastic Wrap; and thus prevents re-contracing even a single time. This also shows that actual containers are treated differently than assembled ships. This can further be confirmed by looking at the plastic wraps:
http://i.imgur.com/Ecjcg9s.png

Test 5
Fitted Ships with Modules inside it
1st Courier Contract => Successful
2nd Courier Contract => Successful
3rd Courier Contract => Failed with this message

Conclusion: Once again confirming that an assembled ship is not treated as a container as far as sub-contracting goes.

Test 6
Item Exchange Contract of a double wrap Courier Contract above
1st Courier Contract => Successful
2nd Courier Contract => Successful
3rd Item Exchange Contract => Failed with this message

Conclusion: Any type of contract attempt on a double wrapped will fail.

Test 8
Scanning of contract with Giant Secure Container assembled and items inside it


Conclusion: Assembled container prevents the scanning of the goods inside

Test 9
Scanning of contract double wrapped once
1st Courier Contract => Sub-Contract
2nd Courier Contract => Scan


Conclusion: Even a first double wrap causes the original Plastic Wrap to be un-scannable.

Test 10
Scanning of standard courier contract
1st Courier Contract => Scan

Conclusion: A plain plastic wrap does not prevent scanning of contents.

Test 11
Scanning of a courier contract with a fitted ship
1st Courier Contract => Scan

Conclusion: An assembled ship does not allow scanning of fitted, cargo hold, or drone bay scanning.

-----
Overall Conclusion:
Assembled containers with modules in them make the courier contract not be sub-contactable. Assembled Ships are not treated as containers for the purpose of sub-contracting.

Scanning is prevent when a container of any type is presented within the Plastic Container; this includes ships. Any 'container' inside of the Plastic Wrap will be un-scannable. The rest of the goods within the Plastic Wrap would be scannable.

The type of sub-contracting matters in the event you are concerned with scanning. If you want your goods to be scannable than then would need to create an Item Exchange to your alt, or accept on your alt. If you are not concerned with being scannable, then you can sub-contract via Courier.

Let me know if anything seems off, I still have the contracts to play around with for now.

[Turhan Bey]

Wow, this differs from my understanding but I have to admit that I haven't tried beyond a 3rd layer of wrapping anytime in the recent past. This was because in the "far" past, anything beyond two layers was disallowed, so I assumed that hitting a 3rd layer meant that further layers were still possible.

Considering that your tests are completely up to date, your findings must be conclusive. So it seems that the general rule is now: Any container or contract package that also contains a contract package cannot be further subcontracted. Good to know.

[Azra Hakaari]

Just signed up my alt up to the mailing list. She operates out of the Stacmon area since I am near LSC most of the time. Has a freighter along with blockade runner and regular industrial hauler in the area.

[Nikkah Lonestrider]

By chance would there be contracts offered up that don't have such steep collateral requirements? As a new player, I simply cannot afford the contracts being offered. Given the cost of the ships, skill books and collateral, not to mention the training time required, this doesn't seem targeted at new players. I know you have to protect the value of the goods, but I'm just curious as I wouldn't mind making some ISK on my haulter who just got into his first real hauling industrial.

Just an honest question, not meaning for it to sound like a complaint.

Thanks!

[Turhan Bey]

It's a fair question. There just aren't a lot of either small volume or small value hauling needs.

I've been considering splitting the jobs that can be split, though doing so would lead to either an arithmetic increase in costs, or a very small per-jump reward. I've already split some of the jobs just to avoid collateral exceeding too far above 400M at a time.

Perhaps I should look once again into different reward levels for different sized jobs based not only upon their volume but also their collateral requirements. The main problem is that it just doesn't scale very well. For example, a single job requiring 400M collateral and a 3M reward, just doesn't do so well as ten different jobs requiring 40M collateral and 300K rewards (which is 25K/jump instead of 250K/jump).

But I'll give the idea some further thought.

[Nikkah Lonestrider]

I certainly understand the issue of scalability, not just of the jobs but of your time as well. Splitting one job into several does pose issues. If nothing else I've provided some food for thought. Now pass the katsup.

[Torrin Sanchez]

Sweet! Thanks for setting this up. I'm barely a month old with a brand spanking new alt-hauler ready to go.

[Paul Umwelt]

I'm currently making a trial concerning the hauling capacity near the Aldrat area. I've issued lots (350) of courier contracts of varying rewards and collateral, but have tried to keep them under 5000 m3. Since I'm cutting up the contracts, collateral also gets lower, hopefully allowing more people to move them. Rewards are at 100k per jump for low collaterals and higher for larger collaterals. If you have a larger ship, you can collect multiple contracts and thus increase your reward.

Depending on the success and interest of this endeavour, I will expand into other regions. I hope this can be the start of regular courier contracts spanning all of New Eden.

More details can be found in the thread below:
http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopi ... 48&t=81958

EDIT: all contracts are issued to the University, so you should reissue them to a hauler alt on your own.

[Henko Nahakkivu]

Ho,

I'm just beginning to use contracts for the Aldrat Trade Project, but I've encounterd the first bottleneck ... the reward for the individual courier contract. Due to limited funds for the project I can only buy smaller numbers of goods in different places (where they are cheaper), say 1.000 m³ in Dodixie and 1.500 m³ in Rens. Now this goods are to big for my fast sneaky blockade runner Venture (:lol:) and I don't have an ooc alt. On the other hand a fair few unistas have these alts or suitable ships to haul these goods.

So we can do this together: I provide a smallish courier contract and the other unistas has some cargohold left in his ship. So if he's in Rens anyway, he can pick up the contract for some extra ISK. I don't expect that someone flies to Rens and back to Aldrat for my contract alone.

The cruical point is the reward. The mentioned standard rate is way to high for such small contracts ... 10 jumps from Rens to Aldrat would amount to a minimum of 2.000.000 ISK. Ok for higher volumes (and hence more profit), but not possible for ATP stuff. ATP uses Hek prices, so the profit per items is limited.

Solution

The collateral based reward. Again ... shamelessly plagiarized from one of Paul Umwelts ideas. I did a few calculations and settled at a rate of

0,5% collateral per jump

as the standard reward. I know that Paul is much more generous with his rates. ^^ But remember, only a small amount of cargohold is needed and it should work on a "pick up if convenient and flying that route anyway"-base. If you combine it with other courier contracts or your own hauling needs, you can make a nice profit (at least from a newer players point of view).

Another nice effect: the more valuable the cargo (and collateral) and therefore the risk is, the higher is the reward.

The rate of 0,5% seems (and maybe even is) quite low. But keep in mind that every jump lowers the profit and there is no "economy of scale" in place since the cargo volume is so low. I simply can't afford to buy 8000m³ of rigs at one time in the same hub and ship it to Aldrat for a flat rate of 200.000 ISK per jump. Nor will the ATP create huge profits ... think of a corridor between 10% and 25%. Every jump equals 0,5 percentage point of your profit. After 10 jumps that amounts to 5% of your profit, acceptable if you can realise 25% profit, but hard if your profit before hauling costs is 10%.


Example

Lets say I have a contract package of 1.000 m³ at Rens and need someone to haul it 10 jumps to Aldrat. The collateral is 11.000.000 ISK.

11.000.000 ISK x 0,5% = 55.000 ISK per jump
10 jumps x 55.000 ISK = 550.000 ISK reward for the courier contract


Another example: 8.000 m³ at Rens, 10 jumps to Aldrat, collateral at 88.000.000 ISK.

88.000.000 ISK x 0,5% = 440.000 ISK per jump
10 jumps x 440.000 ISK = 6.600.000 ISK reward for the courier contract


What do you think about his solution?

- Henko

[Turhan Bey]

Anybody who puts up contracts is free to pay whatever s/he regards as fair. Bringing down the reward for very small, very easy to transport parcels is quite acceptable, especially if they are so small that they can fit into, say, an interceptor or a covert ops frigate. Doing that makes the cargo run potentially very fast and nearly worry free.

The 250K isk/jump payment applies only to "official" E-UNI contracts, which will (almost) always be large hauls. It was chosen because common commercial providers charge about twice that much (500-650K/jump) as a flat rate regardless of package size or collateral level. However, there is nothing in the rules that require personal/student contracts to follow the same cost structure.

Basing the payment on the cost of the cargo, and thus the collateral, is a very common method in EVE Online as a whole.

[Tor Sinwulf]

Just signed up!

[Paul Umwelt]

150+ Courier contracts available to corp. Recontracting needed. Details in the link below.

http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopi ... 56&t=89466