Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

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CapnJakku
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Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by CapnJakku »

Hello my PI friends!

(thinks how to organize long post in logical way)

So it's now been around 3 weeks that I've been running 10 planets across my 2 alts and it's been a very interesting learning process. Both characters are at CCU IV, so it's 10 planets apiece for now.

One is running 5x P0-P2 and the other is running 4x P0-P1 + 1 P1-P3 Factory. I did it this way just to get a feel for the different ways PI can be done, and I'm still not sure which is more profitable per time investment.

Eventually I will have 3x PI characters with CCU V + IC V... So I've got to thinking of how I could get those three characters to work together to create P4. I'd prefer to extract as much as possible.

Although the profit isn't my primary goal, I still want to actually generate revenue. So I turned to A4E since I don't know any better PI tools that get into the chain chart nitty gritty.

Here is where I'm a little stuck :study: and could use help getting clarification on some numbers

In the Wetware Mainframe example below, I have the parameters set to Sell to Jita Sell Orders, No taxes, and Current Price.

Image

Definition of each figure illustrated per A4E:

1. Profit after customs tax if P0 was sold directly
2. Profit of the whole chain from the beginning. If 'Buy' checkbox was not checked, means all materials were extracted.
3. Delta of profit selling input materials to this material. If negative it's more profitable to sell the input materials (ignoring profit/volume)
4. Delta of profit selling P0 input materials to this material. If negative it's more profitable to sell the P0 input materials (ignoring profit/volume)
5. Profit per 1m3 of cargo space

Now... I'm really confused by:

3. Delta of profit selling input materials to this material.
4. Delta of profit selling P0 input materials to this material.

What does this mean?

Is it a strangely-worded way of saying that it's more profitable to sell the input materials rather than further refining up the PI chain? Obviously this would be based on current market prices. But I don't think this is correct, because #4 can't be telling me it's cheaper so sell ALL raw P0 inputs (based on the "current prices" parameters I set for the chart)... Rather than making the Wetware Mainframe.

But whatever #4 means... It's still negative... I guess it's connected to the current Mainframe prices? Here is the image.

Image

Once I noticed the recent dip in prices in the above graph I adjusted the price parameter in A4E to show "6-month average" and that brought #4 back to a positive figure.

:roll:

So I've shared all this info to get my thought process written down, in case somebody might be able to identify where in my thinking I'm going astray.

Ultimately I'm looking for advice on determining P4 profitability, better understanding A4E (I've watched the video on the site as well).... All in the ultimate goal of finding a way to get 3 characters to work together to produce profitable P4 through an extraction-oriented PI setup.

I know this sub-forum doesn't get heavy foot traffic, so bless you if you've wandered here and read through this :angel5:
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Anidien Dallacort
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by Anidien Dallacort »

Is it a strangely-worded way of saying that it's more profitable to sell the input materials rather than further refining up the PI chain?
Exactly this.

Sometimes it's more profitable to sell the inputs, than to combine them and sell the higher tier PI.

P1 is in high demand since the Spring, since P1 is used directly in creating Battleship/Capital level components.


Even before that introduction - not every higher level PI product, turned a profit, versus just selling the components that made it up.


Even if P0 is more profitable than the P4 right now (I didn't check the work)

1) P0 in that volume would be quite a monumental task to haul to market

2) P0 doesn't have high volume of trade at market (and its price is questionable as a result).

I wouldn't personally compare prices below P1 - and even for P1, you have to do a lot of hauling if you are going to sell that. It's not just a pure profit consideration.
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Arin Mara
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by Arin Mara »

I've spend far too much time meta-analyzing tools for Planetary Industry profit analysis and concluded that I can't interpret any of them. That includes A4E. I almost decided to write to Ethan02... but decided against it.

Remember when I wrote that, in the end, I only had Factory Planets? ;) That's because I made my own tool for Planetary Industry profit analysis that told me that's the most profitable setup. Marek Holmberg, then a High Security Campus Chief Buyback Officer, now a Teaching Manager, can attest that I sold weirdly gargantuan amounts of Planetary Industry Products at 95% Jita Buy. :P

Image

Why is this tool not publicly available, just like the rest of my work? Writing a Report about it is on my ToDo list, but it has been drowned out by my obsession to make the Wiki the most beautiful and the most truthful publicly available knowledge repository in all of New Eden. :D

However, your continued interest in Planetary Industry bumped it up the ToDo list. :P
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by Anidien Dallacort »

Arin is spot on - when it comes to PI, self driven tools are beautiful. I have my own, too, and agree some of the other stuff out there, can be hard to interpret.

The reason I have always attributed to that - there are different ways to approach PI, and each approach requires a different viewpoint on the process. Extraction and combination, versus factory planets, all use the same basic math and data- but the approach is different, and therefore the layout is too.

There are things like A4E out there- but creating your own tool - for those who feel up to the task - not only lets you view the data your way, but gives a fundamental understanding of PI while you are at it.
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by CapnJakku »

Firstly, I want to thank you both for the time you took to answer me. I wanted to reply sooner but it's been a busy week.

My understanding based on your responses is that:

1. A4E is a good tool, but is better used as a general guideline, not a statement of facts
2. Considering the wide variety of factors that determine PI profitability, time investment, current market prices, setup efficiency, etc, etc, etc, it's best to do my own calculations/spreadsheets.

I truly don't have the desire to learn how to use Excel well enough to do this, so I'll pass for now and simply operate based on my "eye test" data... Er.... "data" :lol:
Arin Mara wrote: 2021.11.03 18:12 Remember when I wrote that, in the end, I only had Factory Planets? ;) That's because I made my own tool for Planetary Industry profit analysis that told me that's the most profitable setup.
My initial eye test would agree with this. Having pure extraction or P0-P1 planets seems like it allows the most resources/hour to be pulled. If hauling P1 to factory planets it's much easier than I thought.

The only annoying thing I've run into with this setup is figuring out how to balance the inputs I'm providing to factory planets since resources are being harvested at totally different rates based on abundance and hotspots moving.
Anidien Dallacort wrote: 2021.11.04 07:03 Arin is spot on - when it comes to PI, self driven tools are beautiful. I have my own, too, and agree some of the other stuff out there, can be hard to interpret.

The reason I have always attributed to that - there are different ways to approach PI, and each approach requires a different viewpoint on the process. Extraction and combination, versus factory planets, all use the same basic math and data- but the approach is different, and therefore the layout is too.

There are things like A4E out there- but creating your own tool - for those who feel up to the task - not only lets you view the data your way, but gives a fundamental understanding of PI while you are at it.
Reading this makes me realize I should maybe not even attempt P4. I'd really have to adjust my mentality and completely embrace the analytics and create a RL hauling schedule that matches the various cycles in the P4 creating chain.

Life would be soooo much simpler if P1 wasn't so big :P
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by Anidien Dallacort »

Just a slight, slight modification to your last post:
A4E is a good tool, but is better used as a general guideline, not a statement of facts
A4E has facts. The couple of times I've checked its numbers, they have been spot on.


It's just a matter of whether its presentation of the facts meets your needs or not.
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by CapnJakku »

Firstly, thank you for answering my question on whether selling P0s can be more profitable... Highlighting the fact that it's simply not realistic based on bulk, even though it can technically be more profitable.
Anidien Dallacort wrote: 2021.11.07 05:40 It's just a matter of whether its presentation of the facts meets your needs or not.
Hmm not sure what you mean by this.

My needs are to understand A4E better so I can determine which P4 is actually profitable (either via profitability table or chain chart data). As far as I'm aware, A4E has the data to answer this question, I just keep getting very different answers based on the parameters I set, and I'm not totally sure if I'm setting the correct parameters.

For example, if I want to simulate the following conditions:

- P4
- 5% POCO tax
- 8% Buyback of Jita Buy
- Extract-only setup
- Most profitable over last 6 months

Result:
Screenshot_20211107-171248.png
So based on this info (I'm not sure what "levels" means), Integrity Response Drones have been the most profitable P4 to manufacture over the last 6 months. This table probably assumes everything is taxed equally. Otherwise I'd have to use the Chain Chart function instead to manually input various tax rates if the P4 chain is being done across systems with different tax rates. This table also assumes all facilities along the chain are running 24/7.

So even though the data might be correct, it has to be taken with a grain of salt because keeping factories operating non-stop might be less realistic in some systems compared to others based on factors like resource abundance, planet size, etc.

Am I barking up the right tree?
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by Anidien Dallacort »

Levels means how many levels of the production chain you do yourself. 4 levels for an P4, means you are producing the P4 from R0. 2 Levels would assess manufacturing that same R4, from P2.

This is starting to get to the territory of "for your needs" - there's a lot of data in A4E, because it tries to cover everything. If you specialize in a certain type of production, you have to sift the data for the result you want.

The key here to remember, is you do NOT have to do your own extraction, and make everything from your own R0. Keeping your factories running, as you stated, becomes a challenge if you try to do that and you are producing higher tiers.

Purchasing lower level Px material, and combining it into a higher level which you then sell, is an entirely valid way to do PI (pure factory planet setup).



Data is just data - interpreting data is where success comes, and how you display data to be able to best interpret it, can be the key between success and failure. Your need, is to get the data you want, for the type of PI you do, in the simplest manner possible, to make decisions.


If you are making P4 from your own R0 - yes, you have to note that the data in the site considers your factories as constantly running - and if you're not doing that, the site isn't displaying data that meets your needs - even if the site is accurate. You may consider a custom built tool, with some kind of correction factor.

A4E has accurate data- but if you don't know how to read it, it's not meeting your needs.
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Re: Assessing P4 Profitability & Interpreting A4E Chain Chart Data

Post by CapnJakku »

Your answer to "levels" has really opened my eyes to the various ways that PI can be produced. Since all beginner PI guides naturally focus on extraction-based setups, my mind naturally defaulted to this mentality when analyzing A4E I guess. Now I understand what you really meant by "based upon your needs".

I never really considered PI with no extraction at all... So now I understand what Arin meant.

This :arrow: "Data is just data - Interpreting data is where success comes"

Pretty much sums up the reason I posted this topic in the first place.

Thanks for putting a nice bow on it Anidien
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