[HSG/LSC] Punching Above Our Weight

[Bakito Hakoke]

I jumped on comms when I was informed by LeFleur that there was a War Target situation. Jumped on comms and realized that a WT Proteus. The two WTs were coming and out while HSG had frigates bumping them. This had been going on for quite a while as people were forming up ships, I took over the role of FC.



When we waiting to engage we pinged LSC for logi in the first wave. By the time they had arrived another WT jumped into system. With 3 in system, they undocked a Kronos and 2 Hyperions. Redbox was called and we jumped on for the kill, HSG wants blood and I will assure blood was spilled. We were punching above our weight but it was a good lesson and wake-up call to new players.

We started to lose our battleships as some of our pilots were already on field as support and DPS was in warp. The battle felt like it was going on for hours but eventually one of the Hyperions start to break. Once the Hyperion broke, some of our ships also started to disappear. Cruiser DPS was being lost as the second Hyperion was able to rep up long enough to dock.



But the fight was not over, as the Kronos was still on field and the second Hyperion popping in and out. With our ships dwindling in numbers, I called for the fleet to disengage



Later on, I found out that one of the pilots misclicked and warped in his Harbinger Navy Issue instead of his Harbinger. It was an expensive mistake that he learned in this engagement and lessons were learned by other HSG members.

Coaxster then brought the LSC fleet to Amy gate but at that time the WTs were already deciding to move back to Dodixie and not take up the fight.

BR: http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=262342
Kills: 483.66M
Losses: 979.12M

Pros:
Enough people from HSG wanted to engage the three battleships
Good communications and fleet cohesion
Awesome logi and response time from LSC logi

Cons:
Human error that could have been fixed with more training
Not enough crusier DPS from HSG’s side

Logi:
Richard Marte

- If I'm missing anyone or anything please let me know

[Lilcole Kavees]

Very good response from HSG, and it was an Enjoyable battle!! We will definitly better ourselves from this..

[Dal Cais]

a Long few hours spent camping the docked target brought reward, despite the losses. :

He had to call on his 'big brother's' to come and help him out.....

And a thank you... to the other Campuses for coming to our aid......

[Richard Marte]

Was lots of fun. I've staged some logi in Amy now, so I can get there faster.

As logi I didn't end up doing a lot of good - the action mostly ended by the time I got on field. A few observations:

1. I was docked up in Juf, and it wasn't clear when I was needed in-system. The goal was to avoid spooking them before they engaged, so that made sense, and with people arriving from all over keeping track of it all as FC isn't easy. But, do call for when you want everybody in, and provide warp-in instructions.

2. I arrived too far out. I warped to the FC at 50 figuring the FC was near the target, but the FC was already a fair distance off. Being burner fit it took a while to get into position. Sorry if anybody was lost in the meantime. Next time I'll clarify that before warping in, and I probably should have bounced instead of burning.

3. Many of the DD were ranged and arrayed across a considerable distance. Those on the far side of the station from me would never have been in range for reps. Generally you want the DD to anchor up so that they can stay in range of logi, unless you're flying a kiting fleet without logi (then spreading out makes it much harder on brawlers or tackle).

I did see some broadcasting for shields, but this was supposed to be an armor fleet. If it was just hitting the wrong button no big deal - logi just needs to know who is taking damage and you'll get the appropriate reps. However, if the ships actually had shield resists that isn't optimal at all - you want your resists around whatever logi is going to rep.

Was happy to respond though - drop in comms anytime! Ironically enough I was actually fitting an exeq to ferry over to Amy just to have it handy there in the future, because the other day I was carebearing there when a WT showed up and I felt rather useless. If you post any QRF doctrines I will try to keep something on hand.

[Bakito Hakoke]

Was lots of fun. I've staged some logi in Amy now, so I can get there faster.

As logi I didn't end up doing a lot of good - the action mostly ended by the time I got on field. A few observations:

1. I was docked up in Juf, and it wasn't clear when I was needed in-system. The goal was to avoid spooking them before they engaged, so that made sense, and with people arriving from all over keeping track of it all as FC isn't easy. But, do call for when you want everybody in, and provide warp-in instructions.

2. I arrived too far out. I warped to the FC at 50 figuring the FC was near the target, but the FC was already a fair distance off. Being burner fit it took a while to get into position. Sorry if anybody was lost in the meantime. Next time I'll clarify that before warping in, and I probably should have bounced instead of burning.

3. Many of the DD were ranged and arrayed across a considerable distance. Those on the far side of the station from me would never have been in range for reps. Generally you want the DD to anchor up so that they can stay in range of logi, unless you're flying a kiting fleet without logi (then spreading out makes it much harder on brawlers or tackle).

I did see some broadcasting for shields, but this was supposed to be an armor fleet. If it was just hitting the wrong button no big deal - logi just needs to know who is taking damage and you'll get the appropriate reps. However, if the ships actually had shield resists that isn't optimal at all - you want your resists around whatever logi is going to rep.

Was happy to respond though - drop in comms anytime! Ironically enough I was actually fitting an exeq to ferry over to Amy just to have it handy there in the future, because the other day I was carebearing there when a WT showed up and I felt rather useless. If you post any QRF doctrines I will try to keep something on hand.

Good reflection by Richard Marte on the fight. I did call for everyone to warp into the fight and someone one of the battleships to give us a warp in. Some of the things were lost during communication and HSG is starting to learn to fly with logi (we never had any during our WTs QRFs but then again that has to change.)

[Richard Marte]

I did call for everyone to warp into the fight and someone one of the battleships to give us a warp in.

Agree. I just wasn't quite sure who that was directed at. It sounded like you were already engaged long before I arrived and the last instruction I got was to dock up in the top station in Juf. There were numerous comms involving fleet activities in the meantime and my understanding of the situation was that you were trying to play with them to get them to commit (always a problem when fighting near stations - part of the reason for the other day's success was catching them away from a station).

Don't feel bad - I've seen this in other fleets when you have forces both on-grid and off-grid. It is easy for conversation in comms to be oriented around the overview that everybody assumes everybody else in comms can see, and it isn't always obvious who commands are being issued to.

HSG is starting to learn to fly with logi (we never had any during our WTs QRFs but then again that has to change.)

Flying without logi works for NoP and certain doctrines, but when you're dealing with T3s and such you're going to have to bring cruisers or better to the fight, and you really need decent logi support for that to work unless you're willing to burn through a lot of ships.

Definitely worth teaching how to fly with logi. There are really only a couple of principles like:

1. Call for reps (though there is some nuance to this if you're flying a cheap ship in an expensive fleet - you don't want to distract logi everytime a smartbomb goes off or whatever in low/nullsec). You should generally call for reps as soon as you see yourself getting targeted, esp if by the whole enemy fleet.

2. Stay between the targets and logi. That is where logi expects you to be if you're going to be in range. Logi cruisers typically have 60k range, and they have to hang back from the fighting as close to that as possible since they're always primary targets.

3. Have an appropriate fit. Any of the doctrine fits are going to be fine, as are PVP fits on the wiki in general. However, don't think that just because EFT tells you the EHP is higher that it is fine to just swap out an anti-em shield rig for some more buffer. You want enough tank to not get alphaed before logi can target you, but otherwise you want as much resist as possible. If logi is healing 500 dps, and you have 80% resists, then the enemy has to inflict 2500 dps to kill you. (Some of the same principles also apply to active tanks when missioning.) I mention this mainly because early on I spent a lot of time messing around with EFT and didn't really appreciate the importance of resists vs buffer.

[LeFleur]

Thanks to all that took part. I had fun lighting up the sky with diamonds in my first time ever in a vigil I had fitted in less than 3 minutes and had to get out fast. Later on I heard my painters helped boost the tornado tracking so I'm quite glad I took that decision when the fleet commander asked for anybody in a vigil.

[Gilly Hakaari]

Was a bit late getting in on this fight as I hadnt been back from work long so unfortunately I missed the hyperion kill.

Lots of fun was had though as I managed to make i out for the station games with the Kronos & 2nd hyperion, no kills there but at least we showed them they cant just come into Amy and pick on students haha.

main issue I had was knowing which ship to bring, arriving late when the fight was already in full swing I wasnt sure what the full situation was or what was needed from me and since comms were full of chatter about the ongoing fight I didnt really get an opening to ask and just undocked in a tackle frig. Is there any procedure for finding out the current situation without interrupting the combat comms as a late arrival? I just ask since we had plenty of tackle on field already when I arrived and had i known I could have shipped in with something more useful.

[Elizabeth Masterson]

Was flying a Blackbird with a rainbow fit. Barely made it out after losing half of my armor. And almost fell asleep im my chair sitting on the undock in my tackler frig. I think I spent three hours or so camera spinning.
Turns out jamming your targets when they are playing station games isn't good because if they can't fire they will simply dock back.
I also had an Osprey logi ready but since people asked for armor, I din't field that.
Next time I'm just bringing in a bunch of blaster-fit cruisers.

[Karen Altol]

Had a lot of fun and felt like I accomplished quite a bit. Cargo scanned a freighter on its way out of system to provide important intel about what was coming in or out of Amy and I then flew tackle for the rest of the engagement. Thing I managed to get one bump in and I had the hyperion that blew webbed and scram'd. I look forward to more engagements with HSG.

[LeFleur]

As I read through this once more, I realize that a lot of people took good lessons from it. This was indeed an amazing action for us then.

[Rhomnir Korba]

1. Call for reps (though there is some nuance to this if you're flying a cheap ship in an expensive fleet - you don't want to distract logi everytime a smartbomb goes off or whatever in low/nullsec). You should generally call for reps as soon as you see yourself getting targeted, esp if by the whole enemy fleet.

I think you mean broadcast for reps (calling for reps over comms just makes for more chaos, you don't want that during an engagement.) Frigs and dessies shouldn't bother (unless you're super-important) as you will probably melt before reps land, especially with armor logi.

2. Stay between the targets and logi. That is where logi expects you to be if you're going to be in range. Logi cruisers typically have 60k range, and they have to hang back from the fighting as close to that as possible since they're always primary targets.

Actually it's the job of the logi anchor (if you have a few in fleet and someone steps up) or the logi pilots themselves to stay on the opposite side of the DPS blob, away from the opposing fleet and in particular the tackle but within rep range. DPS themselves have enough on their plate (especially new players) without having to maintain a position suitdd to logi, DPS anchor/FC is busy maintaining an optimal position and calling targets

Keep your FC and critical ships pre-locked so you can rep almost right away (in this case the two 'geddons - sustained neut pressure would have made the Kronos' life very interesting indeed)

I agree you were severely short on DPS ships (Serious Cruiser/BC DPS) and especially logi - one isn't going to be of much use to a multi-battleship QRF; I'd encourage the newer players to have a fit logi cruiser handy (Exeq / Scythe just in case you have odd numbers) because they're always useful and welcome.

-- Rhomnir.

[Richard Marte]

1. Call for reps (though there is some nuance to this if you're flying a cheap ship in an expensive fleet - you don't want to distract logi everytime a smartbomb goes off or whatever in low/nullsec). You should generally call for reps as soon as you see yourself getting targeted, esp if by the whole enemy fleet.

I think you mean broadcast for reps (calling for reps over comms just makes for more chaos, you don't want that during an engagement.) Frigs and dessies shouldn't bother (unless you're super-important) as you will probably melt before reps land, especially with armor logi.

Indeed, that was what I meant. Speaking out on comms instead of broadcasting is another problem I've seen lately. If you broadcast on comms and don't broadcast in game, logi probably won't rep you in time, because it takes a while to find you and lock you up, and most likely they're busy locking up the people who have broadcast. It isn't necessary to say anything on comms when you take damage, or even if you die unless you're the only point/etc.

2. Stay between the targets and logi. That is where logi expects you to be if you're going to be in range. Logi cruisers typically have 60k range, and they have to hang back from the fighting as close to that as possible since they're always primary targets.

Actually it's the job of the logi anchor (if you have a few in fleet and someone steps up) or the logi pilots themselves to stay on the opposite side of the DPS blob, away from the opposing fleet and in particular the tackle but within rep range.

My point was that in this case there was no DPS blob - DPS was all over the place. I certainly agree that the logi anchor should position logi appropriately relative to the dps anchor. However, when DPS is scattered in a 50km sphere around the enemy, there is no place logi can go and reach everybody, except right on top of the enemy. After I arrived on-grid I positioned myself in what I thought was the best place possible (though in the initial confusion I ended up warping in fairly far).

If DPS is going to be responsible for their own maneuver (no anchor), then they're going to have to be responsible to be in a place where they at least have a hope of getting reps.