Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

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Yto Itinen
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Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

Post by Yto Itinen »

Note: This AAR was edited after I took some time to review the killmails and the video provided by Taylor

Roam members (23)
Spoiler
Asuka Rossi - Corax
B'aldrick Aivoras - Talwar
Brock Carlisle - Kikimora
Christoph Patrouette - Cormorant
Falling Snow KumaMoto - Corax
Flatline Kasenumi - Maulus Navy Issue
Helen Dorothy Sharman
Hippla Tsero - Corax, Dragoon
Johnny Raygunn - Thrasher
Kelly Saraki - Talwar, Catalyst
Liet Wu - Catalyst
Marcel Eriker - Dragoon
Marv Edwoods - Algos, Cormorant
Raas Caslo - Dragoon, Catalyst
Sophia Ligeti - Coercer
Squin Ti - Corax
Stogal Severasse - Catalyst
Tolerin Escipion - Dragoon
Toma Heleneto - Caldari Navy Hookbill
Yto Itinen - Algos
Zairnix Onren - Talwar
eoiles - Thrasher, Catalyst
manda doomsslayer - Corax, Catalyst
Participation was great! Thanks to all who came to this fleet! We savoured almost all flavors of content Losec has to offer!

Maiden voyage of the fleet through some hisec, we practiced all fleet movements, discipline would pay off later that night!

Fought Taylor on an Orthrus for a bit, no casualties by either sides, our independent scout tells us of an SNI next door. We blue Taylor, go for the SNI.

Why did I decide to take the SNI fight under gateguns:

I valued that 23 ppl in fleet would be upwards of 2.3k DPS with min skills. That is a lot of damage.
Dragoons and Algoses have the ability to put decent neut pressure.
I have pings on the gate that allow me to go in and out gategun range.
People who live there are often time ratters with fits that are not appropriate for PvP. A passive regen fit would have died.
The shock and awe effect of 23 people attacking and putting pressure on a single pilot is not to be underestimated.
I believed a spooling Kiki and an Orthrus would be a decent tipping point in our favor, knowing both pilots are quite skilled.

The fight on paper was uphill to say the best, but the baptism by fire of gateguns was something I was eager to try: swim or sink.



Kills and Losses

(21:13:42) Ruerrotta
Algos -4.41m
Corax -6.34m
Corax -5.96m
Capsule -0.01m
Thrasher -12.74m
Dragoon -4.68m
Dragoon -8.91m
Thrasher -4.58m
Maulus Navy Issue -22.87m
Dragoon -4.69m
Caldari Navy Hookbill -17.11m
Corax -5.29m
Talwar -4.47m
Talwar -10.51m
Kikimora -154.54m
Talwar -3.23m
Algos -7.28m
Catalyst -3.85m
Coercer -8.77m
Dragoon -4.72m

Scuts engaged the SNI and he fired back, even while being too close to the gate. This encouraged me to believe he might either be tricked or panicked into firing, anyway, hello aggression timer! Now I committed all fleet and made sure at no point he was de-agressing.
What bothers me is that FC had a problem with TACs, as I could see my deep safes but not gate pings I had on the same folder.
Some bounces were decent, but they were not on-grid pings. I went again at the place of the fight the next day, my TACs are now all showing...
We had a huge dps spike that was slowly curbed by gateguns and the SNI itself, although he was terribly fit to apply to small stuff, his drones did well.
Algoses defanged him for a while, but his dronebay was still full. SNI was pretty well omnitanked, as we had a variety of types of damage we dealt, and he also had active tank that held neut pressure well. I was waiting for the moment his capsticks would end, as he had dipped in hull, but instead we got a Typhoon. Oh well, that was the tipping point that turned the fight and we had no more hope in reships coming from 3 j out to turn the tide.

Now I did an anylisis of the kilmails and some things could be improved upon:

1)Some people died with their active repper fully charged. I think I gave them enough time during the maiden voyage to familirize with ships,
seems the PvP shakes got someone :D For next time: cycle your tank. Some people did not have loaded reppers, although reminded to do so, we will do better next time.
2) Some killmails either went full DPS/no tank or switched to shield buffer tank. If we had logi, that might have been a good idea. This fleet was annunced as no logi fleet, so the self reps were the only option. Shield extenders also increase your signature against bigger guns and missiles. The doctrine is there for a reason!
3)Some people died exclusively to gate guns. This meant sitting still while not being tackled and just watching your tank go down with no reaction. The bounces were called, so I chalk this one to good ol'PvP shakes! Don't worry, it happens! That's why it's important to learn that lesson in a cheap destroyer and not in an expensive ship: the more you fight, the better you will get at reacting! Maybe next time I will have us take gate guns just for the sake of teaching fleet how long they can hold fire.

To recap, this fleet comp came into being with two different aims: punching down on small, blingy ships, with a high alpha doctrine and punching up on a single big ship fight like this, with the algoses and the dragoons as heavy hitters. We were a bit light on the second category during the SNI fight, but taking it into hull is no small feat!



(22:28:00) Aulbres
Maulus Navy Issue -22.18m

We decided to go look around Stacmon, where a Caracal gang was in theory looking for a fight. In practice we found dreads
and other nasty stuff. We navigated those messy systems quite well, until I found a quiet system where we could fight Taylor,
(this time reshipped into a Cynabal) with no third/4th/5th parties.
After confirmation of her arty fit came, we decided to engage, keeping Dragoons at least 150 km from her, and using tackle to try and pin her until the heavy tackle warp. We handled her volleys decently, were close to landing tackle a few times and as long as we were clear of third parties, the fight was a great exercise. We tried to bait her fire with either FC or a Hecate to give time for the fleet to beeline, but Taylor was having none of it. Flatline, Toma and Brock did some excellent bounces and landed close. We paid the price by losing Flatline, exchanged GFs and took a break. Watching the video closely, I'm very satisfied with fleet behaviour and decisions under pressure: many were shot and either coasted back away from enemy range or bounced off, so the self-awareness we are looking to build with these fleets is there, we will cultivate it further!
Still, no matter how hard Taylor disses the Cynabal, the speed was a great option in the hands of a good pilot: I feared the Orthrus fight more because of the tackle range on it, but at least the damage it deals is pretty constant. A few of the Cynabal volleys were quite surprising, but the fleet held transversal quite well and I'm happy :D



After Taylor called it a night, we decided to shotgun belts and teach the fleet about the life in Losec. We got one Clone soldier, practiced fleet calls for aid and had our scouts check adjacent pockets. No content came from there, but on our back something was brewing...


(22:37:32) Aunsou
Algos -4.21m
Capsule -0.01m

We had gotten word something was happening on our way to Osti, it turned out ISH wanted to punch below their weight and tried to camp us.
Marv scouted and got firsthand experience on how bad that was.

(23:05:15) Alperaute
Corax -19.16m

We saw a Brutix on D and that looked like something down our alley, we saw a gnosis too and still thought fair fight, we saw a pair of Vedmaks and decided they were not really in this for a fight, and they undocked a Leshak. Turns out they also had a Lachesis around. Their gatecamp was quite dangerous, but we had a good TAC and cold warped away, with only one casualty and many exotic dancers lost :(

(23:16:45) Ouelletta
Cormorant -4.69m
Gnosis +70.39m

We were on our way to Juff, when a Gnosis crossed our path out of the blue, and from the fit he probably wanted to gatecamp. He got more than he bargained for as he melted before we could cycle props twice. The shower of DPS we demonstrated here still makes me believe that we have on our hands a good raw material to work with, in terms of doctrine. Refining is going to take a bit!

PROS


1) Fleet movements, response to commands and anchoring discipline has been steadily improving, it gives me confidence to try better things.
2) Scouting and tackling was top shelf stuff, especially the tackle attempts on the Cynabal.
3) Participation to the fleet and the marathon duration made my day, and some small hours of the night :D
4) Stady improvement on the clarity of what we do and why we do it, some feedback from last fleet made me simplify some orders that were not clear before! Thanks for your feedback, keep it coming!
5) I believe we have the raw material in terms of pilots and doctrine to make a decent small ship skirmishing fleet and we will keep building on that. By giving more responsibility to single pilots, we facilitate the duties of FC and command and self-reliance is going to bear sweet fruits in small gang warfare and other fights! Let's keep building on this!

IMPROVEMENTS


1) There is no newbro speech that can contain all the info needed to survive all engagements so I wll add one more point in relation to active tank and bring some small chunks of lessons and practicals to facilitate fleet operations: a fleet should be the culmination of a series of practicals, having it be both the starting and top point of a PVP experience is quite demanding.
2) More clarity on what I expect from newbro scouts, the senior ones performed well, I will try to have them work better in terms of teaching new scouts.
3) To be honest, I'm quite impressed with the fleet performance so far, so even if there are details to be ironed out, the core is solid. I will give this doctrine some more time, make some small tweaks here and there instead of making radical changes. I took some notes from Ged's dessie fleet and will try to take the best part of that build and adapt it for losec.

I hope to fly again with y'all next time!
Until then, fly fun!

Yto



Stats
ISK Destroyed: 82,830,133.32
ISK Lost: 358,482,399.75
ISK Delta: -275,652,266.43
Efficiency: 18.769%
Last edited by Yto Itinen on 2020.02.07 23:22, edited 4 times in total.
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Taylor Moon Mahyisti
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Re: Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

Post by Taylor Moon Mahyisti »

Yto Itinen wrote:We engaged a SNI, we had a huge dps spike that was slowly curbed by gateguns and the SNI itself, plus a Typhoon that came to help him.
SNI was pretty well omnitanked, as we had a variety of types of damage we dealt. I was waiting for the moment his capsticks would end, as he had dipped in hull, but instead we got a Typhoon. Oh well
was definitely a shame we didnt get him. would have loved to see his fit, probably cap stable id imagine otherwise he'd have probably run out by the end of the fight. scorp navy is a really strong and underrated ship, unlike the normal scorpion

a bhaalgorn or even just a neut domi or curse would have probably made short work of it, sadly i dont go to that area often and didnt have anything nearby. maybe ill take a DST up there sometime with some ships to have dotted around the place
Yto Itinen wrote:(22:28:00) Aulbres
Maulus Navy Issue -22.18m

We decided to go look around Stacmon, where a Caracal gang was in theory looking for a fight. In practice we found dreads
and other nasty stuff. We navigated those messy systems quite well, until I found a quiet system where we could fight Taylor,
(this time reshipped into a Cynabal) with no third/4th/5th parties. After confirmation of her arty fit came, we decided to engage, keeping Dragoons at at least 150 km from her, and using tackle to try and pin her until their warp. We handled her volleys decently, were close to landing tackle a few times and as long as we were clear of third parties, the fight was a great exercise. We tried to bait her fire with either FC or a Hecate to give time for the fleet to beeline, but Taylor was having none of it. Flatline, Toma and Brock did some excellent bounces and landed close. We paid the price by losing Flatline, exchanged GFs and took a break.
good fight. i have video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSWAxqXeUo

played quite well on both sides, i was looking for people to overcommit that i could lunge for and destroy, but discipline on your side was good and only the maulus navy at the end did slightly go in too deep and died. i think i maybe could have tried for another couple of kills if id been more aggressive, but solo against 15+ is always difficult and i think it wasnt necessarily a bad choice to play very defensively especially since you guys were long range fit

very good warp ins from hookbill, coercer and hecate. had me scared and overheating a few times

also: i learnt that i really dont like the cynabal. with a loki or orthrus i think i would have been able to do much better, in fact thinking about it pretty much every other nice kitey ruiser offers something that cynabal doesnt really have. orthrus has great application with rapid lights and a big tackle range bonus that lets you get kills from further away as well as having a long defensive scram which is great for safety. vigilant has incredible dps along with a 90% defensive web that can be up to 18k heated with fed navy web, which is a great defense. ashimmu gets a big web range bonus which is great defensively as well as offensively, and has good neuting power which as a last line of defense gives you a fighting chance to escape a frigate that has scram on you. and loki, where to begin, gets a cloak which lets you travel in complete safety as well as start the fight in an ideal position, gets a big web range bonus like ashimmu and a further bonus to overheating. and it also has much better dps, alpha and range. it is slower but at least it gets the overheating bonus so it's not too bad

cynabal is fast, but really that's all it has and it's not even that much faster than a vigi or orthrus. its dps isnt very good, and even the warp speed bonus got nerfed to 25% which quite honestly isn't good enough for what's supposed to be the angels' signature thing. it's only equivalent to one hyperspatial, so what's the point? just put a hyper on a better cruiser and you have it. travel fit loki with interdiction nullifier and hyperspatials blows it out of the water with over 10 au/s, more than double the cynabal (more if you use warp accelerators too, personally i dont bother cause they dont add that much). admittedly you do have to refit back to combat fit when you get there, but it still probably saves time if you're going a good distance. anyway, im not flying cynabal again any time soon lol
Yto Itinen wrote:
(23:16:45) Ouelletta
Cormorant -4.69m
Gnosis +70.39m

We were on our way to Juff, when a Gnosis crossed our path out of the blue, and from the fit he probably wanted to gatecamp. He got more than he bargained for as he melted before we could cycle props twice. The shower of DPS we demonstrated here still makes me believe that we have on our hands a good raw material to work with, in terms of doctrine. Refining is going to take a bit!
i would probably agree, i was thinking about what ship i could take to fight you guys and it was hard to come up with something ironclad. i did settle on kitey cruisers, but that wasnt perfect either and you guys managed to fight it quite well

thank you for the fights, look forward to doing this again in future
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Johnny Raygunn
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Re: Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

Post by Johnny Raygunn »

Had a great time. This was my cherry voyage. First Fleet. First PVP. Was very glad I only lost one ship. https://zkillboard.com/kill/81477548/ Any comments on how/what to do better would be well received. Not sure if "PVP shakes" was directed at me or not but I did get nailed by the gate gun. I am sure I am not getting all the info from the zkill I should be. Looking forward to the next one.
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Yto Itinen
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Re: Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

Post by Yto Itinen »

Thanks for flying with us Johnny, I hope this is the first of many fleets together!

What info you can get by zkillboard:
1)It shows how many people/entities fired at you before your demise:in this case it only shows gateguns and no player fire.
Gateguns deal damage that applies perfecly, and a destoyer with no reps can take 2-3 volleys before melting, with reps you can hold at least twice that.
They do not "tackle" you, so you can warp off anytime. Since no human player was tackling you,this means you are free to go and come back as you please.
If you warp off to a point 200 km off the gate, a "Tac"(tactical bookmark) gateguns "forget" about you and stop firing.This means we can shoot at a target, get some gateguns, warp 200 and repair and come back. The alternative is bouncing(warping off) to a station or celestial, which takes more time.
Since the moment you stop firing, you have 60s of "aggression timer" that prevents you from jumping the gate or docking anywhere,that's why Tacs are preferred.
This other KM https://zkillboard.com/kill/81477642/shows me some other interesting data:it shows the wapon systems the opposing players used against us: Heavy EM missiles from the Scorpion Navy Issue and Heavy Drones from the Typhoon. Both weapon systems are quite inneficient at fighting small ships that have their MWD off. Also, Sophia has 7 charges left in her module, meaning she cycled her repper at least once before being shot down.

2)It shows how many unused charges you have in your midslot modules: in your case, it's 9, which is max capacity of the medium ancillary shield booster. It also shows how many charges you have in your cargohold, which is again all of what was given on contract. I can deduce that you forgot to use the mod and maybe I should have explained their function better. It's a note for next fleet!

As for the PvP shakes, it's one of the best aspects of EVE: fights are supposed to bring emotions and adrenaline! After a few fights you will get still a lot of that, but maybe also a clear head to balance things a bit! That shock and awe factor is also true for our opponents, which is why we decided to press a fight in 50/50 conditions: while we had numerical superiority, a fleet that big is bound to create some discomfort to the single opposing SNI pilot.

PS: https://zkillboard.com/kill/74760966/ We all started somewhere!

Fly Fun!
Yto
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Johnny Raygunn
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Re: Thresher Thrasher Thursday Fleet

Post by Johnny Raygunn »

Thank you for the insight. I learned something new....rep shields. I mainly play PVE in a passive armor tank drone boat. "Get em my minions!!" I will definitely be in the next fleet.
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