[AAR] engagement ivy vs rvb at ithar

[Gyrgon]

Please, do not make decisions on behalf of the FC.

By the very nature of large fleet fights there’s commonly an information overload for the FC. They cannot possibly remember everything, and other experiences FCs or fleet members may remember things you’ve forgotten. With more advanced players the best thing for the FC to hear is “already done” when asking for something, because a competent pilot anticipated the FCs/fleet’s need (i.e. bubbles, boosts, mobile cyno inhibs, tackling things, etc). It severely reduces the gap of the FC not remembering as quickly or being able to say it fast enough. It speeds up the action and makes the fleet more efficient. It’s also extremely common in more advanced fights. Yeah you’ve got an FC, but an experienced pilot knows how to act semi-independently at the same time.

Cause it is not possible to understand how many pilots you have with you by checking the number of pilots in the fleet

Legit concern, but the fastest way to solve is to grab an empty squad and set up shop there.

Marcus, two things I want to point out here:

First, I think you misunderstand the complaint. It's not about ppl anticipating the FC's needs, it's about ppl other than the FC or other designated ppl in the chain of command giving orders. That is confusing as hell and may run counter to the FCs orders or complicate them. Especially in newbro heavy fleets that might struggle to get the basics right instead of being concerned with efficiency.

Second, I think Ares explained this point already, if you have a disciplined fleet this is a good option, but if you don't and you can't trust ppl to get themselves sorted properly, then you might as well not do it. In general I think you two just have two different approaches to FCing and are probably used to a different kind of fleet member.

I must say, this was a massacre.

The keres loss could be avoided too, the use of damps for approaching was a good idea but approaching straight is not....u dont know how many sensor booster he have fitted, and was at range too. so as he locked you....poof. The MWD excuse dont apply if u burn in a straight line, its a turret ship. Transversal is what counts. the MWD bloom your sig, that is true, but arty tracking is not that good....some transversal would've helped. A little class on spiraling and tackling should help for that.

[...]

For movement tho was not that great. In the 1st part as (silent) LC i tried to get the logi anchored on me, then i tried to anchor on the FC to micromanage more the reps. But DPS was too close to the targets and i lacked to give prop commands, one logi got caught and we lost another. After Logi commander changed and the 2nd engagement started i got recalled because was moving out of logi range. was not my fault guys, u were SITTING STILL. when i got recalled the 2nd time tho i approached my friends and died because the Nightmare was in scram range of the Logi. The armageddons were there too. Logi should play more safe and STAY AWAY FROM DANGER. More spatial awarness is the key to play safe, armageddons have long range neuts yes, but getting scrammed and webbed is a thing that should not happen for a logi wing.

Asuka, since both of those issues are aimed in my direction, I'd like to respond.

For the first issue I am not sure what you were seeing, but I was actually spiraling in on the Machariel, instead of burning in a straight line, like you say. Your advice is generally very good, but it was also already applied. In this case the Mach repositioned via MJD directly in front off my current direction without loosing target lock and because of my running MWD my turn radius was too wide to adjust my trajectory in time, which resulted in a glancing blow that was enough to kill the Keres' paper tank. Sometimes you just get unlucky. If there was a mistake here, it was that I didn't realize the direction and range of his MJD spoolup would place him directly in front of me. It was very well done by the Mach.

For the second issue, you are absolutely correct, I totally botched the movement part on being LC. Instead of moving us around to keep us safe from the enemy ships and tackle while still staying in rep range, I closed the range to our DD too much. I attributed an insanely fast failing tank to us being too far into falloff, which we weren't but what might have been a missing hardener instead, and anchored us on the FC. I then promptly forgot about it in the confusion. My priorities were off, range control should have been at the top, while in the moment it was an afterthought for me. I was more concerned about the logi being too spread out, which is also an issue, but wasn't the mein issue here.

Lessons learned: Keep moving when anchoring logi. I will also keep in mind that as the FC has a 2IC, a logi squad should have a designated 2IC. When the role was thrust upon me when our LC died, I was not prepared and to be honest was scrambling.

[Gergoran Moussou]

Regarding what Ares said:
There are two main solutions to the standing fleet issue. More common in small organizations such as my previous corp and WHC before that, you have everyone remain in the standing fleet but move down to a dedicated wing/squad for the operation. In larger organizations such as my current alliance, someone will generally ping Discord with something like "Roaming gang in Cynabals. Forming Caracal fleet [fleet name] under [FC name]. Comms are [Mumble channel] Need tackle > Ospreys > Caracals." I'm not in a position to make decisions for IVY, so I'm not going to tell you whether you should take the option of a dedicated squad/wing within standing fleet or forming up a new fleet in its own comms channel when this sort of operation occurs. It is, however, best to standardize one of those to procedures as the way to handle it every time.

Marcus is correct that it's best that people learn to make some of their own decisions before the FC tells them to. It makes commanding the fleet easier. His examples, hardeners, and EWAR are the first things that I would think of (for EWAR, target painters, and webs should generally be applied to the primary target which the fleet is shooting at, but the other types should be spread across the enemy fleet and it's generally not worth identifying particular targets for EWAR).

Hardeners should be on from the moment that a ship materializes in the system (by undocking or decloaking) until the ship leaves the system. They consume a negligible amount of capacitor and there is never a reason not to have them on.

Regarding what Asuka said:
Regardless of whether or not Gyrgon was maintaining angular velocity, fitting sensor dampeners on a Keres is generally a sub-optimal decision. It doesn't have any more of a bonus than the (significantly cheaper) Maulus, and like with the difference between the Celestis and Lachesis, the reason to use it instead of its Tech I counterpart is for long-range tackle, which is essential at the range at which Caracals should be engaging.

Fleet Caracals should be engaging outside of point range, so fitting a point compromises on durability for little benefit. While the BLAP Caracals do need to be looked at, the biggest issue is that the range is shorter than what a Caracal's range should be. This is why it is important to have a Keres in the fleet if possible, and if not, make use of T1 tackle frigates, interceptors, or assault frigates. A Caracal fleet will ideally move in, do a lot of damage in a short period of time, and then move out of range of the enemy until the reload is complete. There is almost never a situation when the best weapon to put on a Caracal is a heavy assault missile launcher and in those situations, it is generally best to use another ship. Heavy assault missiles are weapons for a ship that is supposed to get stuck in and brawl with the enemy, more than any other weapon type besides blasters. Caracals lack the durability and (less importantly) the spare mid slots that an armor-tanked ship can use to mount EWAR modules (most importantly tackle and web) to hold the enemy in place and help mitigate incoming fire. If I was going to mount HAM launchers on any non-faction T1 ship, it would be the Prophecy, and even then, I would probably use RLML (since the main situation in which I would use a Prophecy is fighting in a Wolf-Rayet, it would get a percentage-based bonus to its already massive armor buffer and RLML is the only medium weapon affected by the Wolf-Rayet damage bonus), though a Drake might be used similarly. The most ideal faction ship for heavy assault missile launchers (on par with the T2 ships which commonly fit them) is the Drake Navy Issue, though I can imagine situations in which people might use them on a Gila despite it being nearly always RLML for PVP and either RLML or pure drones for PVE. Because the weapon is more optimal for a type of fighting which favors durable, typically armor-tanked ships, the ideal ships to put it on are the Tech II Khanid ships: Sacrilege and Damnation (and Legion can be fit with an offensive subsystem that makes it a good HAM platform as well), while the Nighthawk is the best Tech II shield ship to mount it on (for boosting DNI fleets) and Lokis can be built to use them reasonably well. Take note of what these ships have that the Caracal does not. All but the DNI have resistance bonuses to their primary tank, while the DNI has a massive buffer tank like the others. Armor ships and shield battlecruisers have enough spare mid slots available for EWAR that you can at least fit a warp scrambler.

An additional problem with heavy assault missile launchers is that they're really not that good without Tech II ammunition due to issues with damage application. This is why the majority of groups which fly HAM ships as a major doctrine require people to have Tech II trained in order to join (Marcus's corporation's recruitment posts, for example, list skill requirements including those for a HAM Damnation).

[Gergoran Moussou]

And, for that reason, the adjustment to be made if you face an adversary which doesn't take significant damage (preferably the loss of at least a logi ship or two) before a Caracal fleet's magazines have to reload is not that the Caracals should have been using a different type of weapon, but that this is a situation to up-ship to something bigger, with Ferox being generally the ideal T1 ship for fleet engagements in which Caracals can't do enough damage before reloading. IVY has the ideal doctrine ship for this purpose already. There's no need to completely change the Caracal fit so that Caracals can be used more effectively in a situation for which they are still not the best choice (while making them ineffective at what makes them extremely good ships).

[Marcus Arilia]

Any replies that require two posts due to length should have an obligatory TL:DR on top

[Ernesto Guevarti]

...someone will generally ping Discord with something like "Roaming gang in Cynabals. Forming Caracal fleet [fleet name] under [FC name]. Comms are [Mumble channel] Need tackle > Ospreys > Caracals."

So I tried to find out what was happening when I saw the first ping for this (for some reason the ping was in HSC and there was nothing in AMC slack at all and no other information in HSC slack)

QRF FORMING: WT attacking structure in AMC, kitchen sink frigate fleet forming up in 101

so I got online while asking in slack if it was still active and where it actually was (AMC is not a useful description). I got absolutely zero response back, but as it happened I was only a few jumps out of AMC in a covops at the time, so went and checked out Kothe and Shemah and neither had any WTs or any sign of a fleet there or anywhere in between, I had also asked in both AMC and HSC in game chat at this point and still got absolutely zip.

In the end I logged at a safe and went off to do other, more interesting and less frustrating, things and as a result missed the second attack. If someone had bothered either putting sufficient details into slack or had actually answered in slack/in-game I would have re-shipped and been around to help, but no one did so I gave it up as a bad job.

[Ky Hanomaa]

it's generally not worth identifying particular targets for EWAR

I heavily disagree - a lot of EWAR Pressure is wasted by not calling specific targets. Just a few examples:

Damps are either ordered to be used on the heaviest damage sources during a skirmish with targeting range scripts to decrease the incoming DPS - you can also damp their Logi during situations where you struggle to break through their reps in which case you'll use scan resolution dampening scripts so they can't lock up a new target as quickly after a target switch from our side. In some cases Damps can also be really effective in countering enemy long-range EWAR disrupting our fleet (including long range Webs).

Weapon Disruptors will also be applied to the heaviest hitting ships on field to decrease incoming DPS.

Target Painters focus the primary to increase damage application and maybe the secondary if there's enough painters on grid to decrease lock-time.

While ECM isn't as strong as it used to be, it can still be useful in a lot of cases. It is a gamble unfortunately so there's always a pretty high chance the Jam won't get through. It shines when engaging Drone-Heavy boats and Carriers as Drones and Fighters have rather low scan resolution.

Dismissing your EWAR like that is pretty ignorant and will cost you a lot fights if the enemy knows how to execute theirs.

fitting sensor dampeners on a Keres is generally a sub-optimal decision. It doesn't have any more of a bonus than the (significantly cheaper) Maulus, and like with the difference between the Celestis and Lachesis, the reason to use it instead of its Tech I counterpart is for long-range tackle, which is essential at the range at which Caracals should be engaging

You generalize a lot for someone that doesn't seem to have much of an idea, so let me do the same. "In general" it always depends on the engagement. In this case, the damps would have been a huge help. It would have kept both the Machariel and the Nightmare from applying from their optimals and thus forced them to get closer where their tracking would have become an issue. The Armageddons on grid were fit with Heavy Missiles iirc and thus not applying well to our Caracals unless we had our MWD running.

In small gang, the Keres is used a lot to damp out enemy long-range DPS.

Be aware that PvP in EVE is more than just two blobs alpha-ing each other for 30 minutes and stop saying "in general" for everything.

There is almost never a situation when the best weapon to put on a Caracal is a heavy assault missile launcher and in those situations, it is generally best to use another ship. Heavy assault missiles are weapons for a ship that is supposed to get stuck in and brawl with the enemy, more than any other weapon type besides blasters

And again - it depends on the engagement. We used HAM and HM Caracals with great success for QRFs in the past since a lot of WTs bring Battleships. If you look very very closely, you'll see that this the case during yesterday's engagement as well. Our fleets usually consist of 10-15 Caracals tops which means our RLMLs won't have the critical mass to break something before reload, especially with reps on grid. So Asuka's point was more than justified.

While switching to Drakes or yet another ship to make the best use of these weapon systems would make sense, we already have Caracals. They're cheaper and they just need some slight changes to the fit to make room for the HAMs and they're good to go - at least for the purpose we use them for.

[Ky Hanomaa]

Any replies that require two posts due to length should have an obligatory TL:DR on top

^this

[Asuka Rossi]

Gyrgon wrote:

For the first issue I am not sure what you were seeing, but I was actually spiraling in on the Machariel, instead of burning in a straight line, like you say. Your advice is generally very good, but it was also already applied. In this case the Mach repositioned via MJD directly in front off my current direction without loosing target lock and because of my running MWD my turn radius was too wide to adjust my trajectory in time, which resulted in a glancing blow that was enough to kill the Keres' paper tank. Sometimes you just get unlucky. If there was a mistake here, it was that I didn't realize the direction and range of his MJD spoolup would place him directly in front of me. It was very well done by the Mach.

Maybe i was not looking well, i didnt noticed a big spiraling in and i assumed that was a straight line....could be the camera orientation or things like that...sorry^^'
btw u had damps on the ship. if used correctly u should not be YB in any circurmstances. and if u say that MJD in front of u for a transversal 0 shot remember that a BS have a really bad scan resolution. so if he had sensor booster fitted and u were YB at any time (so he was with targeting range script) its not an engagement to pick in that type of ship. it's better to go cheap/pick up something that can sustain a full shot and rush between the shots. I'm not saying that was a bad choice but u should've played more carefully with that type of fire. I suggest u to look at this video of chessur if u are interested -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxo6YO5A08k Its a nice role but as all EWAR roles is dancing with the death.

Gyrgon wrote:

For the second issue, you are absolutely correct, I totally botched the movement part on being LC. Instead of moving us around to keep us safe from the enemy ships and tackle while still staying in rep range, I closed the range to our DD too much. I attributed an insanely fast failing tank to us being too far into falloff, which we weren't but what might have been a missing hardener instead, and anchored us on the FC. I then promptly forgot about it in the confusion. My priorities were off, range control should have been at the top, while in the moment it was an afterthought for me. I was more concerned about the logi being too spread out, which is also an issue, but wasn't the mein issue here.

Lessons learned: Keep moving when anchoring logi. I will also keep in mind that as the FC has a 2IC, a logi squad should have a designated 2IC. When the role was thrust upon me when our LC died, I was not prepared and to be honest was scrambling.

Managing a good position is not an easy role....but yeah the further u are to danger the better. we were only 4 logi and under a lot of stress, we holded quite well after all. For the next time look also at the overview and manual pilot in a good position, if u call anchor on u its a big responsibility. And remember always logi 1st, if we lose a logi wing the fleet wont hold.

Gergoran Moussou wrote:

Regardless of whether or not Gyrgon was maintaining angular velocity, fitting sensor dampeners on a Keres is generally a sub-optimal decision. It doesn't have any more of a bonus than the (significantly cheaper) Maulus, and like with the difference between the Celestis and Lachesis, the reason to use it instead of its Tech I counterpart is for long-range tackle, which is essential at the range at which Caracals should be engaging.

If its the main Tackler of a shield fit (where u dont have that much rooms in the mid cos tank) Damps cant fit. But a damp keres is always better than one without damps. In small gang its used a lot with damps and point ( the gyrgon fit seemd one of those types) and damps can be used defensively to not get blapped. the video is up if u want to watch ^ .

Fleet Caracals should be engaging outside of point range, so fitting a point compromises on durability for little benefit. While the BLAP Caracals do need to be looked at, the biggest issue is that the range is shorter than what a Caracal's range should be. This is why it is important to have a Keres in the fleet if possible, and if not, make use of T1 tackle frigates, interceptors, or assault frigates. A Caracal fleet will ideally move in, do a lot of damage in a short period of time, and then move out of range of the enemy until the reload is complete.

Lots of ideal situations, never seen this happen. Also never seen a tackler survive 35s to wait for the caracals to shoot the 2nd clip. Also the caracals range is tied to the caldari skills, so ranges will vary a lot and 40+km is a lucky range.

There is almost never a situation when the best weapon to put on a Caracal is a heavy assault missile launcher and in those situations, it is generally best to use another ship. Heavy assault missiles are weapons for a ship that is supposed to get stuck in and brawl with the enemy, more than any other weapon type besides blasters.

Its still a missile launcher, can fit on the caracal. Caracals have also a rof and a range bonus, i dont see bonus on RLML only.

Caracals lack the durability and (less importantly) the spare mid slots that an armor-tanked ship can use to mount EWAR modules (most importantly tackle and web) to hold the enemy in place and help mitigate incoming fire. If I was going to mount HAM launchers on any non-faction T1 ship, it would be the Prophecy, and even then, I would probably use RLML (since the main situation in which I would use a Prophecy is fighting in a Wolf-Rayet, it would get a percentage-based bonus to its already massive armor buffer and RLML is the only medium weapon affected by the Wolf-Rayet damage bonus), though a Drake might be used similarly. The most ideal faction ship for heavy assault missile launchers (on par with the T2 ships which commonly fit them) is the Drake Navy Issue, though I can imagine situations in which people might use them on a Gila despite it being nearly always RLML for PVP and either RLML or pure drones for PVE. Because the weapon is more optimal for a type of fighting which favors durable, typically armor-tanked ships, the ideal ships to put it on are the Tech II Khanid ships: Sacrilege and Damnation (and Legion can be fit with an offensive subsystem that makes it a good HAM platform as well), while the Nighthawk is the best Tech II shield ship to mount it on (for boosting DNI fleets) and Lokis can be built to use them reasonably well. Take note of what these ships have that the Caracal does not. All but the DNI have resistance bonuses to their primary tank, while the DNI has a massive buffer tank like the others. Armor ships and shield battlecruisers have enough spare mid slots available for EWAR that you can at least fit a warp scrambler.

so...lets list:
1) Caracals have plenty of tank for a T1 cruiser, can fit easily a tackle mod if not 2;
2)We dont use prophecy and we dont have Wolf-Rayet effects in HS (WH space is amazing!);
3)Thinking about Drake Navy, Gilas, T2/T3 ships is out of the question. And again the ideal thing of everything doesnt mean that i need to use that. Also u are comparing all of this ships to a caracal and u are splatting those in the face of newbros.
4)The only ship that is interesting there is the Drake, have some uses but needs some look into it. Nothing faction or not t2 tho, not cheap/not easy on skills.

An additional problem with heavy assault missile launchers is that they're really not that good without Tech II ammunition due to issues with damage application. This is why the majority of groups which fly HAM ships as a major doctrine require people to have Tech II trained in order to join (Marcus's corporation's recruitment posts, for example, list skill requirements including those for a HAM Damnation).

U mean that u want the t2 launcher for the increased rof with skills right? Rage do a ton of damage but have poor application on little target (but perfect for bigger ones) . In GP u use faction missiles, do more damage. LR ammo do less.

[Taylor Moon Mahyisti]

The Armageddons on grid were fit with Heavy Missiles iirc and thus not applying well to our Caracals unless we had our MWD running.

huh? heavies apply perfectly to webbed caracals. in fact as you can see, even with the caracals moving at 70% base speed (which is much higher than they would be under even one web...) they apply almost perfectly. also most of an armageddon's dps comes from drones anyway, but there we go.



i was shooting fury HMs at you guys and still applying very well judging from the damage numbers. looking at pyfa numbers fury HMs also apply well to a webbed caracal, doing about 300-ish. if we turn the caracal speed down to 40% of base it does about 350, and 30% base speed gets us 375, which is probably about what i was doing since i had you guys webbed + grappled. i think the other armageddons probably had grapplers too, or at least webs. this is with no application mods btw, i did put an LSE on the caracal fit since that looks like what you guys were running judging from the killmails. if you guys were running halos the application would be lower, but i dont think so



i mean think about it, heavy missiles are cruiser weapons... would it make sense that cruisers couldnt apply fully to other cruisers? i think even ccp would not make it like that

fun fight btw guys, we had a nice time

[Yrgrasil]

The Armageddons on grid were fit with Heavy Missiles iirc and thus not applying well to our Caracals unless we had our MWD running.

huh? heavies apply perfectly to webbed caracals.

...


i was shooting fury HMs at you guys and still applying very well judging from the damage numbers. looking at pyfa numbers fury HMs also apply well to a webbed caracal, doing about 300-ish. if we turn the caracal speed down to 40% of base it does about 350, and 30% base speed gets us 375, which is probably about what i was doing since i had you guys webbed + grappled.

i cutted actually most of it, or better to say the important part (btw if you have web/grapple etc fitted, the pyfa chart will use them accordingly, so no need to manually change the speed etc)

So yeah, rhml will fully a apply to a webbed/grappled caracal, thats about it.

Here is the full chart: (Geddon has 5x rhml launcher, t2 web, t2 grapple, Caracals are the T1 Versions with Alpha Skills (the 70% reduction of speed is actually unnecessary here, but i was to lazy to make a new chart))




I don't even ask why the caracals were in grapple/web range...

[Taylor Moon Mahyisti]

btw if you have web/grapple etc fitted, the pyfa chart will use them accordingly, so no need to manually change the speed etc

ahh ok, that'll be why it's sloped at the start then. i thought maybe it had to do with the agility and not being able to orbit it at full speed when close. it's useful that it does that

I don't even ask why the caracals were in grapple/web range...

because rvb has the bestest pilots in the galaxy! speak to an rvb recruiter today and you too could learn of our secrets

[Ky Hanomaa]

heavies apply perfectly to webbed caracals

A.) we shouldn't have been in web-range in the first place

B.) a lot of our guys didn't have their hardeners on (for some reason) which inflates your numbers drastically

Even webbed down and neuted out I was able to hold out for quite a long time just spamming my adaptive invul to get a heated cycle off in between the neuts

[Taylor Moon Mahyisti]

A.) we shouldn't have been in web-range in the first place

i agree

B.) a lot of our guys didn't have their hardeners on (for some reason) which inflates your numbers drastically

yeah but that doesnt show up in the pyfa graph

Even webbed down and neuted out I was able to hold out for quite a long time just spamming my adaptive invul to get a heated cycle off in between the neuts

looking at your killmail that does seem to be the case as you tanked 60k after-resistances dmg. still i dont really think that has to do with the heavies not applying, even if we remove all webs and grapplers looking at 100% base speed the caldari navy HMs apply about 71% of their damage which is fairly reasonable



precision missiles would obviously apply almost perfectly as well. overall i dont think it's correct to say that heavies dont apply well to caracals / cruisers in general

[Ky Hanomaa]

precision missiles would obviously apply almost perfectly as well. overall i dont think it's correct to say that heavies dont apply well to caracals / cruisers in general

I guess I can live with that consensus 70% isn't perfect imo but it's something

gf

[Taylor Moon Mahyisti]

yeah i didnt mean to be nitpicky it's just that i dont want some newbie to read "heavy missiles dont apply well to cruisers" and get the wrong idea. even if they're on your side