[AAR] Secret Sail Op

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Velts Engren
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Velts Engren »

Damn Devola, i feel bad now. But yeah thats also a good point, i realized only after reshiping that the rigs were still in cargo. I just assumed there were already on.
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Yrgrasil
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Yrgrasil »

edit: everything was great
Spoiler
I was able to watch approx half the slaughter on an alt before i had to go to dinner. For the first round it looked like the decision was made to play it like blap merlins, brawl and see if something dies, since you had far better numbers its actually not the worst call, but they had t2 logi and didn't even bothered to bring lots of support, which should make someone cautionus.
Second round looked a bit better, the feroxes tried to pull range. As usual tons of people were not anchored, so all the fat kids got slaughtered. At some point the logi wing seem to have to made the decision to pull also back in again and it looked like they could now finally land reps on the guys who were not able to anchor, but out of rep range to the main fleet.
After that dinner, so nothing what i can say there.

--

Hirmulio noticed finally the KI/KI/TH Hardener, if some of the planning staff would have made their homework they would have probably noticed that trigger uses feroxes lately, and that month or maybe years its kinda standard to have a KI/TH Hardener extra in Ferox doctrines. I think only Horde/Panfam is still using the old version which is basically the uni FCC Ferox.
Feroxes are still great for Defending, but for attackers as main Doctrine without some heavy wing providing another damage source with different profile they are kinda useless if you don't bring enough numbers (100+).

Ged mentioned the griffins; in short just throw them in a box and forget them. Since the ecm patch they got basically useless and the only purpose they have are emergency crowbar operations. Crucifiers can easily reach 100km even with alpha pilots and cost like 2m, up to 150km with an full skilled omega pilot.

Brings me to the next point, while probably not important in this fight, but bookmarks often win you structure fights. Someone said there was a package on grid. If its the same like the one in Solitude its not enough. Make 50-70 bookmarks, with some 1-2kkm away, and 50km stepping for the ones on the structure itself, in all directions. If uni ever gets some ewar fc, he can use it to keep his guys alive and be a pain for everyone red on grid.

That was probably the first time the BLAP Ospreys were somehow fitted for the job, normally most groups run now dual extender or triple adaptive fits which have all far more ehp on the cost of ecm resistance. But for next round probably think about reviewing them first and just bring like 2 alts in smartbomb bc to get rid of the drones, even if they get concorded it is far more effective then praying to rng bob.

Nothing really to say to the rigs, while this happens to newbros it should be embarassing enough for all older players imho.

---

While i don't care if the FC is from NSC or WHC, a actual FC from whatever campus with regular pvp experience would have probably made this a bit more effective/enjoyable (yeah i know newbros love that stuff even if they only die, but that changes kinda quick). I don't think uni in the current state could have won the the fleetfight, but they could have won the objective by some smarter positioning, a bit kiting and using the huginns more effective imho.

Lots of mistakes here were avoidable by doing some research and homework, and normally uni tended to overthing everything until paranoia, but this one looked like the only preparement which was made was to write the forum post.

I think trigger would be happy to teach you more lessons if you ask them actually, use this chance to learn something. I bet some FCs would happily make all the planning to get some experience in these bigger fights. Also even if the FCC is probably populated mainly by salty bittervets, ask or let them review the stuff.
Last edited by Yrgrasil on 2019.12.11 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Psychotic Fickity »

Thanks for feed back.
This AAR is NOT indicative of ALL that was learned from this fleet by myself or other members in the Command channel.
This was NOT my first structure bash fleet, however this was the first fleet where they promised brawl to me in a pm for the structure.
I did make the mistake of not checking what switching out those resists would mean and I grabbed the ship I had not fitted my rigs on ( which was meant to be my second ship).
I did rush to get us out there for timer because I was having a tech issue.
What most of you are not seeing is the conversations being had by myself with others after that fleet. I spent a long portion of my evening talking with more experienced players and FCs. I do ALWAYS learn from my mistakes.
I learned more than you could know and plan on changing things for future engagements.
I would also like to say: While I may have FCC as director, I am still one of the members there and learning. I earned my right to do exactly what I did yesterday, along with most other FCs ( I spent 7 hrs after fleet picking friends brains, some in uni and some out).
I also learned that I need to bring back Saturday Mission fleet as I used to run it, because I think that Uni could benefit from seeing how to change targets, and listen when things get rough and FC's change, or targets change.
I did give those who were out on the fleet a brief over view of HOW to change targets, eg how to cycle off your guns and change to the next called target. I also did explain how to recognize when a target is getting reps, and why we changed targets.
I did repeat this several times, and maybe people missed that. I did explain 1x why we changed ammo and what it was.
That being said,I will not be kicked further ( read, I will not be reading this thread from here, for a few days. This will allow me to step away and look at this thread with a fresh mind and maybe some more perspective.)
Thank you for the input, message received.
Have a good day.

Edit: I would like to please encourage any HELPFUL feed back to be sent to me via a forum message here, please.
The kind of feedback I am getting on here is not encouraging, to myself or anyone who could read this post.
I would like to encourage all those who are posting to please also remember we have new FCs who read these feedbacks and see how negative yall are posting to this and could be discouraged from trying.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Turlough Dominian »

lots of good feedback here, things that could be done better next time and all that which is good to hear.
I got good few pings from some of my campus members expressing there thanks for someone willing to fc and take them out for a fight

But big but some of you should go sit in a corner and rethink your attitudes, to try shame someone and tell them they shouldnt be fc'ing and someone else should be fc is totally rude and off putting this kind of behaviour puts people off frc'ing in the futer and puts new fc's off takeing up new challenges.

Eve university is a new player corporation aimed at helping to let people learn and try new things people only get experience by doing these things, even a new player only in corp one day can take out a fleet, but this shamming people thing is in poor taste.

anywho, ty psycho for fc'ing on such short notice and taking people out for some pvp, definattly good few lessons to be learnt as with many fleets that get into an engagement but try not take the comments of should be someone else fc'ing to heart there literally being rude
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Ernesto Guevarti »

Turlough Dominian wrote:But big but some of you should go sit in a corner and rethink your attitudes, to try shame someone and tell them they shouldnt be fc'ing and someone else should be fc is totally rude and off putting this kind of behaviour puts people off frc'ing in the futer and puts new fc's off takeing up new challenges.
Big +1 to this, there seem to be a lot of people happy to sit on the sidelines and whine like babies about the FC but didn't bother to step up to the plate themselves.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Marcus Arilia »

Turlough, I’ve got to disagree with you a little on this. A few of us on the sidelines were vets so we couldn’t FC ourselves. In addition, in the time I was a member of Uni and FCC Staff, the FCC FCs were not included in the planning or FCing of strategic ops.

And to the point about someone not being the right FC for a fleet, I think it’s an appropriate callout. The FCC program was structured the way it was for a reason. It was intentionally designed to require practice at lower tiered ships, (including an approval process from veteran FCs), before taking out more expensive doctrines such as Feroxes. A similar approach is taken in all other major Eve organizations.

I agree Uni is there to help people learn. Which is why there are programs like FCC designed to help someone do a lot of that learning before taking out large, expensive fleets, especially in an operational setting. Why have the program, the mentors, etc. if major fleets will instead be taken out by someone due to their title and not their FCing competencies and experience?
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Ernesto Guevarti »

Marcus Arilia wrote:And to the point about someone not being the right FC for a fleet, I think it’s an appropriate callout.
It might be an appropriate to discus this privately with members of the management, but how do you possibly think that its the right thing to do in a public forum?

So a uni fleet got whelped? Well, who gives a flying ****! Its just space pixels, and it gave the fleet members the opportunity to fly in a large fleet against an organised enemy. I say bloody good job to Psychotic for stepping up to the plate at short notice and ignore all the nay sayers on the forum.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Laura Karpinski »

Yeah enough of the unproductive feedback, guys. Anyone is very welcome to step up and lead a fleet in EVE Uni. A different FC may have done things differently - thats always the case - but in this case Psychotic was the person who put in the effort to organise and set aside her own time to FC. Not because she's a director, but because she's learning to FC and she took the initiative.

Fleets get whelped in EVE. Fleets especially get whelped in EVE Uni. That's fine, we don't care about killboard efficiency. The purpose of the AAR is to review what happened with 20:20 hindsight and learn how things might be done better in the future. "Don't FC" isn't the lesson to provide.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Ky Hanomaa »

Some feedback from my side

One point that needs improvement is the communication of targets. In the beginning, targets got tagged with numbers (as is common in mission fleets in my experience) instead of being broadcast. My personal problem with that is that within a ball of ships, it is hard to even lock up the exact ship that is tagged - a simple broadcast (Shortcut: X + Left-Click on target in your overview) makes it way easier for others to lock it up via the broadcast history (Ctrl + Left-Click on target-broadcast in your history). This is one of the main reasons (amongst others) we teach people to always have their broadcast history open while in fleet.

Forgetting to put in the rigs can happen at times - I hope the people realized they forgot and remember to check their fit before undocking next time. A Command Ship without Command Bursts (why? just why?) however is a huge waste of ISK.

Furthermore, I second a lot of points being mentioned by others - especially the ones regarding Griffins and T1 Logi.

The Griffins just don't have the jam-strength to pose a threat to any of their Logi - a Scan Resolution Dampening Maulus would have been more favorable in this scenario as it gives you more time to chew through a target after a target switch before their Logi has them locked and lands reps. Have 1 Newbro in a Maulus assigned to each one of their Basilisks - this takes minimal skills and you could have them anchor on a dedicated EWAR-FC to keep them safe.

In scenarios like these T1 Logi just won't hold. 4 Basilisks alone would have been enough to negate most of their damage (with proper broadcasting from the people taking fire) - on top of that, they're way more resilient against ECM which was a rather large issue for our Logi. They would have been more affordable than some of the other T2 Support Ships in the fleet. At this scale of engagement, it's all about individual raw Rep-Output which T1 Logi just can't provide.

Homework needs to be done, as tedious as it can be at times, but knowing your enemy and anticipating his moves is important in EVE. Intel is everything - adjusting your Tank and Damage Profile towards your enemy's composition can turn the odds in your favor.

I apologize for not being 100% invested in this Op due to RL - would have stepped up for a role within the command structure otherwise. Thank you for arranging this Op and thank you to Trigger Happy for providing us with a fight.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Mike Kingswell »

Ged Sinak wrote: Also, were the logi's running their eccm scripts, or were they running their usual scan res scripts?

Looking at this engagement and the number you were fighting you should NOT have died and killed so few of them. Your logi would have been able to hold if they were not jammed out and the fleet had taken care of the drones.
ECCM Scripts as soon as their jams came in - their jams kept being a problem nonetheless.
That being said even in the phases of "light jamming" we had some troubles with their incomming damage, combined with late broadcasts, some poritioning issues and the jams it was not good enough on the sturcture fight.
Ged Sinak wrote:Did the logi FC let the fleet FC know that the logi was being jammed?
Yes. Kept "constant" logi-update wispers to Fleet command reporting the rep status, out logi count and so on.
Devola Gestalt wrote: Last time I checked the goal of the Uni is to teach people how to play Eve. Not farming good stats in zkill. Not braging off about our 100% success rate in strategic ops. Not to just teach how to do 100% safe ganks, while having no idea of what to do in close fights where good decision making (individual & FC) matters. That's why I totally appreciate the directors' willingness to make large scale operations that we're not sure to win. This is a golden opportunity given to our FCs and linemembers to gain valuable experience in larger scale fights. If we lose, we'll grow more from it than from a dozen uncontested structure bashes.

I also see some positive morale component in these operations. Right now HSC & AMC (I'm not much in the later, I use intel channel as sources) are heavily disrupted by WTs, to a point where burn out is a thing, especially for newbros. With an operation like that, for a little time we are the one dealing the punch and they are the ones on the receiving end, we actually get a fight instead of boring station games and dealing with the permacamp, and we see some Uni directors coming down from the Ivory tower and attempt to make something about these wars. I'm all for it.
^thanks for this! Seconned.

Logi FC AAR Stuff:

Pre engagement:

We had a decent showing for logi - enough for a fleet our size - consisting out of mostly experienced palyers and one or two newbro's that did their homework beforehand and knew their stuff. (minus that rig thing but that was a combat reship afaik and we wont talk about it ;) )
Ship already in location made the travelfleet easier and faster so that went well aswell. (big thanks to logistical ppl for the whole operation)
Why no Basilisks? You never really know who is gonna show up for something like this and it "wasn't on the list". I was more than willing to bring+fly one myself but with only 1 or 2 it would have just singled us out as targets. That being said I know of a "core" of logi pilots that can fly them and we talked about this exact question after the op and "put them on the list" for next time.


The Structure engagement:

Designated "Adam Ironborn" (whoever that is ;) ) as Logi Anchor since I knew he knew his stuff and we had done it before in the same combination. His possitioning was a tough job (will get to that) and he did it quite good watching distances all round and asking for props and so on.

The positioning troubles:
began relativly early. The DD Anchor was taken out and I think a few people then simply didn't react to the announcements of the new anchor. This divided our DD squad into groups and had our Logi wing try a "three way split". We were trying to keep most people covered as good as possible and had to take suboptimal possitions to do so. Since there was a lot of spread I still think this was the right call instead of just abandoning one side. But obviously it gave us troubles we could have gladly done without. Additionally that made our movements another challance since we had to prop up a quite a bit and thus using cap and spreading out ourselves.

The ECM harrasment:
was quite annoying. They had a bunch of ECM on us and we switched to ECCM Scripts quite fast (further reducing our capabilities with longer lock times). Some of our snowflakes/ECM pilots did go after their drones and took some of the preasure up. That being said we had to constantly juggle capchain and adjust. Further into the engagement they also started targeting our logi further deminishing our potential.
That being said I am more than proud of my logi wing: The re-chaining and adjusting of the capchain was done fast and smoothly so that we didnt have any cap-troubles ontop of our other problems! Splendidly done o7!

The Broadcasting troubles:
I have to say that i felt like a lot of broadcasts DIDNT COME IN or were quite late. So once our (prolonged [due to eccm script]) targeting proces produced quite a lot of hull-ships or even capsules.

The Logi FC:
(that was me :D) I tried to keep on top of our several problem spots whilste priortising our reps. The enemy did quite a good job of target switching and playing around with us but I tried to keep us on top of that (especially worked out with the people who DID broadcast in time and the others that broadcasted "in possition at" - thanks for that!).
Whilst logi FCing in a hot fight makes me feel like some texas-cattle-auctioneer I (tried to) repeat my calls multiple times and communicate them concise and clearly. I let the members of the logi wing be the judge of that and would love some feedback on this!
Additionally I kept the Command Channel appraised on our situation and offered judgment on the incomming damage vs our repps, the ECM situation and our active logi numbers. (Again - I let others be the judge of how much success I had with this)


The Sun engagement:

All in all this seemed to go much better form the logi side. We managed to hold the incomming damage much better (whilst still slowly bleeding numbers obviously) due to the fact that broadcasts seemed to be better. Still ECM was a problem but we didn't have to worry too much about our possitioning here so we probably managed to land more close-to-optimal reps. Again the enemy target-switchign was done quite well which also explains some of the bleeding.



Final points and conclusions:


There is several things that could have been different and that should be improved. I gave my take on some of it to command already after the op. And some productive (and some very unproductive) feedback can be seem here.
I want to use this to say some additional stuff that is important to me:
  • A more elaborated "this is broadcasting and this is how you do it" during formup would have been nessecary
  • From my POV the FCs kept a cool head
  • LogiSquad communication was good and people knew their stuff!
  • Total fleet-moral and especially logi moral was stellar - dispite the troubles we ran into and the losses we took.
  • Post-Fleet Feedback is important! But guys...keep it civil and productive. "XYZ could have done a better job" and "f*** XYZ they are also useless" and all that stuff won't help ANYONE learn anything and just make this toxic. And however much I hate to call it out but honestly you guys are better than this (I think)
  • Several individuals approached me after the op to relay their thanks and stress how much fun they had and how much they learned. In my personal FUN/ISK calculation this operation was well worth it! So also thanks to the WTs for giving some sweet content!
  • Shoutout to the people who made this possible by building/hauling/planing/bookmarking. I personally count this as a very fun evening and was glad I managed to be around.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Christoph Patrouette »

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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Marcus Arilia »

Not appreciating the straw-manning that’s being used to counter some of the criticism. No one told anyone to never FC. What was said was that the FC should be appropriate for the fleet, and newer FCs should be going through the FCC steps in order, and passing them, before jumping to more advanced doctrines.

Not saying you should be required to be in FCC to run a fleet. But you should expect additional criticism about things that would have been learned had you gone through the process with the mentors that still remain.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Laura Karpinski »

Marcus Arilia wrote:.
EVE Uni is a supportive learning environment, we do not tear people down.

If you want to continue to contribute to EVE uni as an alumni you're very welcome, but not if you insist on continuing with the unproductive comments.
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Rikali Laru »

I was one of the people who forgot the rigs - on the second ferox I lost. Explains quite a bit too. After we reshipped and went back to their system for the second round, I was the first person they primaried (should've bought a lottery ticket today?). I broadcasted before they scratched me once, even checked for the broadcast going through, but if my eyes didn't deceive me terribly, I blew up quickly before a single rep landed on me. I say so because I only had the command burst symbols over the capacitor and nothing else. Might've lived a bit longer with the rigs. (Hopefully) Lesson learned: Rushing to reship doesn't mean you stop thinking. Actually I think I didn't receive reps the first time either, when I had the rigs, but then there were a ton of broadcasts flying down the list so it's understandable. If any logi has the action recorded, it would be nice to learn what really happened. Not blaming anyone here, love you logibros!

I looked at our 10 griffin losses. All except 2 of them were rainbow fit. Considering 9 of the losses happened in the 2nd round, after we had reshipped and returned, they should've all been refitted against ferox/basilisk. Griffins are not that useless if they have the correct ecm modules. At some point I said over comms that griffins should not jam the basilisk we were primarying, but the others, not sure if it was heard/understood. This should've been explained earlier, sorry if it was and I missed. I agree that 2-3 crucifiers would've greatly reduced the incoming damage, even more so if used in coordination with fleet distance and correct ammo selection, and maulus is what it is.

At a couple of points we moved way far off the enemy for the initial ammo loads to do any harm, and the ammo change commands (at least for those who needed it) came late. As someone mentioned above, " load medium range" doesn't help less experienced people sadly.

I have some degree of dislike for damage-locked doctrines. Both sides were such but the enemy used this against us, while we did not. Add basilisks to the equation, and we lost the fight there and then despite higher numbers. Having alternate resistance modules and swapping would've been nice. The reason they showed up late in the beginning might have been because of module swaps.

Thanks to everyone who helped make this happen, it was fun and educational, even for a dinosaur like me :)
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Re: [AAR] Secret Sail Op

Post by Mike Kingswell »

Rikali Laru wrote: Actually I think I didn't receive reps the first time either, when I had the rigs, but then there were a ton of broadcasts flying down the list so it's understandable. If any logi has the action recorded, it would be nice to learn what really happened. Not blaming anyone here, love you logibros!
Don't activly remember the situation but at several points it was the choice between a DD and someone else and the someone else was more important to me - being another logi/Snowflake/FC ;)
This doesn't mean I dont value you as a pilot and person :P <3
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