AAR [WHC] ACHTUNG PARTIZAN! Hole ... non-engagement :)

[Willuw Everquest]

Let me immediately jump to the end of the AAR - No one died, no space explosions were to be had, no isk was lost, no isk was gained - yet I believe that writing an AAR for this "non engagement" is important to help me and more importantly other aspiring FCs learn.

So, Greg Scouted a hole three down the chain, in 3 B1 (2 jumps from our beloved Bacon WH) and upon jumping into the Wormhole was met by the following on DSCAN at various times over the course of 2-5 minutes.

1xStiletto
1xMalediction
2xRavens
2xAsteros
1xDrekevac

Upon the delivery of this delightful news to the WHC Standing Fleet we immediately became eager to form something. More intel from Greg (in a Stratios) suggested that they had just rolled a hole, were originally acting erratically and now all seemed to have disappeared off D-SCAN. I asked Greg to check the Fortizar (10 in Forti) and eventually asked him to scan down the two sigs, that were undoubtedly the static connections for this C2 (Null/C5 Static no effect).

Upon waiting what seemed to be an eternity (5 minutes); and weighing our options (roll or pew) we formulated a bait plan to get them out of the Forti and engage us. Unfortunately, the hole preceeding 3B1 (2B1) was a Pulsar, which led us to selecting NANO as the doctrine to be flown. Suffice it to say, that our remaining doctrines are not ideal for pulsars.

So - Here was the plan:

Send in 1x Bait Probe (Minny Explo T1 Frig) to play "noob explorer" on the *side (The enemy's side of the hole). Setup a NANO fleet (think fast/kitey cruisers w/long range guns) on the other side of the Wormhole. When the enemy would notice the probe and would land ship(s)on it; the probe would jump the hole and the NANO fleet would ALPHA whatever came through the hole.

So we proceeded to take the following fleet (below) to the optimals on one side of the hole, while Erywin attempted to act like a complete newbro explorer on the other side of the hole:

1 Harb
1xOracle
2xBrutixes
2xONI

As we sat and … waited at our optimal ranges; the FORTI spiked to 22 people (wwwooooo). We formulated an extraction plan that involved folks in INNU pre-epmtively putting mass on bacon due to the sheer number superiority of the enemy. A new Sig spawned and I asked Erywin to scan it down and eventually run the Relic site (that it turned out to be) ... again in sloooow newbro fashion.

A LOKI undocked - and we all celebrated loudly...as clearly this Loki was meant for our newbro explorer and we could execute our plan. Nope, he dropped probes, scanned down some sigs, and really - never did anything threatening to our explorer. We called it quits after 15ish minutes and went home (lets not talk about the rolling incident here).

Anyways; by now you are probably going … great, you made me read all this and there is really nothing to learn here...

Well as I was replaying the scenario in my head; it became quickly apparent that the plan was flawed from the get-go (my opinion); so lets say that what we wanted to happen … did in fact happen. Erywin plays explorer, they see him, he jumps through the hole, they follow in something like a Loki or two (or 22) and we start shooting at them from...50K w/no tackle (my fault) and no way to keep them off the hole. So, what would have stopped them from jumping back into their hole and leaving us sitting at 50km scratching our heads as to what the next move would be? Yes, sure we could have gotten lucky and alpha'd a ship or two, but while using NANO doctrine on a hole has a certain safety associated with it; it also allows the enemy to escape … by simply jumping w/nothing on the other side to catch them. I'd love to hear from the Urban's, Marcus's, Troven's and other WH FCs as to how you would have handled this situation....

LESSON LEARNED: You need to anticipate your enemy's next, next and following move and "wargame" (in your head) the plan that you have formulated - don't take forever to do so, and get paralyzed (forming anything quickly is better than doing nothing) but do take the time to see if your plan makes sense - then adjust accordingly. ALSO RTDWHCD (Read The Darn WHC Doctrine Thread) - it explains form ups for each doctrine … note the Stiletto being part of the core.

Also, had we paid closer attention to zkill, we would have known why they could have cared less about a newbro explorer in their system at the time: https://zkillboard.com/kill/79908658/ (here is a hint this happened an hour prior to the above). We did gather intel on zkill, we just didn't do it fully and spot checked versus checking the entire history.

Roam members (11)

Spoiler

Cedric Redfist
Che Galtor
Erywin Chelien
Githzy Galtor
Greg Malufeld
Macilles
Oh' Leeador
Tori Moliko
Tyrion Edwardes
Willuw Everquest
gora int

Kills and Losses

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 0
ISK Lost: 0
ISK Delta: 0
Efficiency: NaN%

Overall evaluation

• ✔ (Positive stuff)
  - We did something instead of just rolling content away; we took the initiative
  - We had a plan for extraction (more on this some other time)
  
  ✘ (Negative stuff)
  Was our plan sound?

[Anidien Dallacort]

Forgive me for the mistakes I’m about to make. I’m no expert here, but have been reading AAR’s pretty steadily over the last couple of months, and feel the best way to keep learning is to just jump in and get told why I’m wrong...

(by the way, I thoroughly enjoy your level of detail Willuw, especially when it comes to the attention spent on not just the fight itself, but the circumstances leading to the engagement)


You’ve got a Corp in a home system with 22 people online, someone sitting in their citadel to count numbers, and an obvious noob in system?

And I’m response - a tech 3 cruiser undocks - alone- makes his presence known through probing, and does nothing?

My read - they were doing the same exact thing you were.. They were trying to bait an engagement on their terms.

If we really want to theorycraft here - they could have even had a cloaky in system with your force, knowing what you had waiting, just as you had someone reporting their numbers back. This is stretching way into the unknown, but the Loki’s behavior screams to me, as a counter skirmish move.


Those who have even passing knowledge of real world military history, will of course know of major battles and campaigns and engagements. What doesn’t make popular history knowledge, is the maneuvering and positioning that can go on for long periods of time, with both sides looking for an opening or the other side to make a mistake, resulting in... nothing.

Sounds like both sides had an idea of strength of some measure against them, tried to bring the other side into an engagement on their terms, and neither side overextended themselves into the other’s strength. There’s good in this engagement that your side didn’t overextend In trying to tackle the Loki on their side of the hole, for example.

I certainly can’t answer what you might have done better with the aid of significant experience in EVE PvP and feet command, because I don’t have the experience, and nothing stands out to me in this case. But as much as you can wonder what you would have done If they did engage and then backed off... I can ask, do you think there’s a better place
You could have put yourself in given the circumstances?

If not, you gave your fleet the best opportunity to try to get the enemy into making a mistake and providing an opportunity to capitalize on such a mistake - without overextending yourself into a mistake your enemy wanted you to make.

Neither side could find an advantage, so a fight didn’t happen. No harm in that.

Meanwhile, more practice forming up, racking your brains to try to adapt to circumstance, and while there were no wins there were no losses. I’d take it as a win in the end, with knowledge gained

[Troven Smalvard]

EDIT: reading on phone and got mixed- the answer is bring more stiletto alts for nano, and then, follow advice below


For the tackle question you asked,

You got 2 Intys which is nice.

Assuming the Loki isn’t cloaky ... (if he is same plan applies but you need a lot more lucky)
And from the scenario you describe above where is prob just him and maybe another coming in and you have eyes both sides.

Inty tackle when he jumps in you start a shooting.
Nominate one of the inty to cross jump to grab him on the other side if/when he crashes back.
Should be able to hold him long enough for everyone to burn in and jump and now he’s polarised and your not.
Crew burns range to start engaging. And if one of you gets tackled if he hasn’t pulled off the hole that one crashes back if they are short ranged.

Not all of these moves is on FC -nominate first jump Ceptre and call the chase (explaining your plan before hand)
The last line people should be aware of anyway piloting their own ship in nano gang

This changes very much if they bring >4
In which a sabre/heretic is super useful for some mass tackle and stalling the retreat other side while you decide to chase or not
But you are reliant on numbers/alts etc to flesh out comp
Fleet you had looked snazzy for the numbers you had, I wouldn’t have anyone reship for this from your set up you had staged. Just if you get trickle ins, can be an addition.

[Troven Smalvard]

That said, “you don’t always need to tackle people for them to die”

With nano if you only have small handful of peeps. Try your luck, it’s what it’s good for anyway and people make mistakes/warp late/ try and warp to a different thing than they are aligned to etc.

Better to get some rounds down range and hope for the best if your short on pilots than have loads of tackle and 1-2 dps.
As always forming up and getting on grid in (the right) position is 80% of FC headache