AAR [WHC] Engagement with New Jovian Exploration Department

[Willuw Everquest]

Disclaimer: Not using AAR tool because need to separate the engagements and its having a hard time with my logs.

Ok....where to start. There are 2 FCs involved in this fight and 1 "Scout" so I am trying to cover 3 separate engagements in one AAR.

Myself and Talen were scouting the chain when we hear Eir inform us that there is a Megathron that appears to be rolling bacon - somewhat curious since we had just scouted Bacon with no signs of life. Myself and Talen told him that we were on our way back to help. Eir locked up, scrammed and webbed the Mega in his Legion. However, it quickly became apparent that what he was facing was a bait Megathron w/T3C backup and Eir was unfortunately quickly dispatched. This could have been any of us as this BAIT was setup really well...I will say that due to the confusion folks in ALI took some time to decide what to do...or what to undock...by the time anyone reacted the engagement was over. Also a double edge sword here - Do you just undock SOMETHING to help the legion in trouble or do you play it more cautiously - I probably would have undocked something DD and probably would have lost it...more discussion to be had here, maybe off line.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/79741780/

ISK Destroyed: 0
ISK Lost: 365,230,432.85 ISK
ISK Efficiency: 0

At this point we went into INTEL gathering mode. We quickly ascertained that they actually came from a new SIG (Wormhole) inside INNU, and they managed to scan down the hole unnoticed to us and used the Bacon hole to make it look like they came from Bacon - they did not...their home (as of this writing) is actually next to us in a different connection.

Ithugor took over and it was decided that NANO would make a good doctrine to kite out the Megathron and the T3Cs.

- Ithugor Harby
- Greg Harby
- Erywin Oracle
- Amoni Omen Navy Issue
- Talen Scout Helios
- Willuw Scout Stratios

I staid on the *Bacon side as intel/scout and Talen scouted the enemy's home hole. I will let Ithugor fill in this part, however my understanding is that the warpin worked out ok - however the Loki's managed to decloak 9K off the fleet and the engagement started. One of the Loki was burned down to 1/2 hull, however the fleet lost Erywin at this point (Oracle) and the Loki's tank managed to catch up with the remaining DPS on field. The two Lokis dropped all of the NANO within short order. Of note: this could have gone very different as the Loki almost broke and the engagement would have ended up Isk positive.

We lost 1xOracle;2xHarbingers and 1xONI.

ISK Destroyed: 0
Isk lost: 254M
Isk Efficiency: 0

After this engagement I was finally able to make it back into Innu, as it was "safe" (its never "safe" in WH space) to traverse the bacon hole. The enemy wanted to PEW more and we called for LA, and Ithugor asked me to take over FCing and I obliged - even though I think he is a better FC than I.

- Willuw Brutix
- Professor Talos
- Greg Harby
- talen Brutix
- Cdrick Brutix
- Ith Exeq
- Amoni Ashimu
+1 Exeq

We ascertained that the enemy brought 4 Confessors and a Pontifex - and they warped to the SUN for a fight. LA - is bad at range and is really meant to be used to brawl on a wormhole. I refused to take the fight on their terms and warped the fleet to their Wormhole, staid on the Innu side, and we orbited at 500 w/prop mods on. I asked Ithugor's alt to get me a warp in at ZERO and he quickly was able to provide me said warp-in. Now … if only I knew how to select "Warp Fleet to 50km" instead of "ZERO" everything would have gone to-plan, but … even the best plans do not survive first contact … and we had to improvise as we landed 45Km off them. I quickly asked the fleet to align to the wormhole...and back we went. The enemy ended up warping to us and engaging us at 40km off the hole (as expected) - it was a standoff, on our side our longest reach was just shy of what they orbited us at (40ishK) - however the 4 confessors were unable to break our Logi...so round and round we went, us sitting on the hole...them 40K off us shooting for a good ...10 minutes. I refused to come off the hole as they would have kited us out (that's what they wanted us to do) - so my plan was for their crystals to burn out (hours)...or if this continued go reship into NANO... GOOD PRACTICE FOR OUR LOGI - I SAY! (BTW they did awesome).

The fessors got tired of these shenanigans and finally landed on us at zero on the hole - and the fight was on. I called for the Ponti to be primaried (their boosher), but we were unable to break him - but he was unable to boosh us (this round) as we put our scrams on him quickly. They started to break us, and I called for the fleet to jump the hole; we were bubbled and I immediately called the sabre as primary - and the Sabre barely made it out. The Fessors/Ponti followed and we were able to burn down 1xconfessor. Now we finally were in control, and they jumped back into INNU defensively and we followed - now it's getting a little fuzzy … but we did get booshed - and two separate fights occurred - however were able to kill two more confessors and lost 1 Exeq in the process.

Isk Destroyed: 321M
Isk Lost: 38 Mil
Isk Efficiency: 90ish Percent

https://zkillboard.com/related/31000382/201911060400/

Things I learned: "Wormhole Bushido" is a thing; they were super friendly; and we ended up having a great convo in local and calling it a night. Always double check your warp-in distance, especially if you are committing the entire fleet. TAKE FIGHTS on YOUR TERMS; but make an effort to manipulate the battlespace in such a way to make it your terms (refusing to blindly warp to sun to get kited out, then trying to get a warpin on top of them). Be patient, just because your fleet is getting shot at is not a reason to run away if you have LOGI (see 40km engagement) - if you have time, as the FC, ascertain what's going on formulate a plan, communicate said plan. ENSURE that your fleet mates switch to close range ammo when needed (I did not call this out to them). If you get booshed, put someone in charge of the fight that's occurring away from you. As always - INTEL IS KEY, and we didn't have it at the beginning and they managed to fool us into thinking they were rolling a completely separate hole than the one they came from - this is a lesson every time - INTEL IS KEY...KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

It's getting - late: We learned lots, had fun and … WHC IS RECRUITING.

[Professor Academiac]

We jumped, there was a Sabre and a bubble. You called primaries and for us to reaproach hole. Their reps were holding until you switched primary and we quickly killed one confessor. They jumped, we followed, we got booshed and consequently there were 2 separate fights on the grid. Both fights went well for us.

[Willuw Everquest]

We jumped, there was a Sabre and a bubble. You called primaries and for us to reaproach hole. Their reps were holding until you switched primary and we quickly killed one confessor. They jumped, we followed, we got booshed and consequently there were 2 separate fights on the grid. Both fights went well for us.

Thanks updated some stuff.

[Rayni Ptarth]

Hilariously, these were the same guys that jumped Danny, Slyham, Philos, and I last week. See Danny's AAR for details. We also found them to be nice folks (post battle).

[Erywin Chelien]

Just a few learning points for me.

Nano:
After we landed on the hole, the Loki cloaked and we were told to stay at our optimals. I forgot to turn on the MWD to get speed up. Loki managed to de-cloak 9km off me and scram, at that point we managed to get him down to half hull before I exploded.

Light Armor:
I went second logi after getting the Oracle blown up, not much experience with Logi but learning. After we hole tanked, it took me too long to realize that they had booshed half the fleet, leaving me behind. Ithugor mentioned bouncing to something close and I managed to get on grid with the main fleet too late to save him but got reps on Willuw before they switched to me, had to return to ALI before they got me as I was the only Logi with no self rep. I keep forgetting that the Logi range is quite a bit longer than most of our ships.

Thanks to Ithugor and Willuw for taking the fights and getting us content. In my opinion, better to take the fight (unless hopelessly outmatched), than sitting in station. I think the Nano fight would've gone differently if we hadn't lost Amoni and I quite quickly, but I definitely learned things about the new doctrine.

Cheers,
E

[Marcus Arilia]

Fantastic AAR. I really like the level of detail. Couple things throughout that I’d mention.
-Overall it sounds like the biggest thing is that you learned some stuff, which is the important part.
-I’d recommend using your notepad or in-game settings to identify some of the groups you know are dangerous. In this case knowing the Mega’s Corp was a PvP one could have saved on the initial engagement.
-On the nano side, depending on your max range, engaging a Loki in a nano doctrine can cause you problems because of the evil webs. Also, see my note on Ky’s AAR about some of the math challenges. I will say the biggest way to prevent getting caught is to have the fleet anchor on you in nano, and constantly be moving.
-Trying to get a warp in at 0 with a cloaky was a good call, nice work.
-Wormhole Bushido is indeed real, most the time if you ask the opposing FC will be more than happy to talk through things with you, and give you some pointers. Plus it’s always good to make friends.
- You have learned well, always take fights, pew pew pew
- Other than that it looks like you did some good self-reflection on what happened, which alone is a very important skill.

[Talenelat Stonesinew]

After a very quiet day, it was great to have some fun fights erupt!

Big thanks to Ithugor and Willuw for doing the FC. And to everyone else who answered the ping.

My favorites from above:

The best plans do not survive first contact

Or, cf.

In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

Or, https://bit.ly/2PVduia

So, apparently Willuw is Eisenhower. Who knew? I mean, I knew EVE was old, but that old?!

INTEL IS KEY...KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

had fun and … WHC IS RECRUITING

Lessons for me:

Learning #1: All doctrines are important

0 is 0. 1 is 0. 2 is 1. An 'on-contract' ship is not a ready ship. 1 week ago my mode was "I have low cash, I'll just buy the ship if/when it's needed, so that I don't have ISK locked up in ships that aren't getting used, while not having money to buy the one that IS being called for.

After the last sheet payout (1b ISK in two weeks)(WHC is recuriting!!) this is no longer a concern.

Despite the Heavy Armor (HA) doctrine fire drill two days ago, I still didn't have a 'good' nano doctrine ship ready. I should not expect to buy a ship on contract, re-fit, meta down guns, all within the span of 2 minutes. This is likely a 5 min exercise and even 2 min is 1.9 minutes too long.

TLDR: I should strive to have at least 2 ships from each doctrine in my hanger, fitted, ready to fly, ASAP

Learning #2: FC is hard, there are 1,000,000 things going on

TLDR:

• If low/non-critical decision, I shouldn't wait, rather, just decide, and take action.
• If critical decision, don't assume they heard you. Be tenacious, re-communicate until you get a solid answer. Do this quickly because time is often a critical resource.

FC may not hear your question/answer. FC may hear it, but not process it. FC may hear it, but not respond because (all) the other things are going on.

Example:
Jumped 1Z1 Hole. Oh darn, Omen Navy Issue is on the WH. I align, hit the MWD and cloak, start burning away. Change direction. He starts burning at my position, FAST. Ooooooooooooooh _______, he's getting within 5000. Wait, wha ... he's gone past, I'm still cloaked, pheeeeeeeeew! I scan down the 1Z1 hole and check structures.

Done scanning, not wanting to risk another close ONI encounter, I ask (in comms) if 1Z1 hole is clear. During this time, we are forming Nano. I ask again in chat. I sit around waiting. During this time, Nano jumps to Bacon, engages, almost kills a Loki. It was a 50m Helios. It was one ship.
I should have just jumped back, re-shipped ASAP (even a non nano ship!!) and maybe we get a Loki kill?!

Example:
Forming LA, I [x] up for Exe/Aug. Form up done 5 min later, but two other logi are slotted, and I'm looking around for a ship. It takes me another 5 min to buy a Brutix, meta down guns, adjust fit so power/CPU work. Fortunately, I still arrive in time to help.

Learning #3: Ammo is a pain

I should set up an in-game note with ammo summaries for what is short vs. long range.

[Amoni Panala]

I am a complete fool.

I hopped into my Omen Navy Issue, itching to kill things, and then completely forgot what I was flying. I flew it like a much slower, cumbersome ship and didn't even bother to turn on prop mod. Had I done so I might have lived. I also had a repper which I activated way too late into the fight and that also contributed to me dying, like a fool.

My loss of the Omen Navy Issue was completely avoidable. I don't know what happened there, but somehow my brain just didn't process that I was flying a very different kind of fit (despite being very excited about this ship). It was bad. We almost got that Loki, just didn't manage to bring my A game.

[Marcus Arilia]

Ammo is a pain I should set up an in-game note with ammo summaries for what is short vs. long range.

The game has one. When right clicking your guns it has your current ammo followed by cargo ammo, longest range on top to shortest at bottom.

[Gergoran Moussou]

Clarifying what Marcus said about pulling range not necessarily being the best way to handle the Lokis.

Every strategic cruiser can be configured for bonuses for the EWAR that the race's T2 ships focus on (you'll often hear people say that for anything but Loki, ECM/neut/tackle is the optimal). Loki has long-range webs from that equivalent (and often used in armor doctrines as the more expensive equivalent of a Huginn in shield doctrines).

At long range, you already have a disadvantage to avoiding damage with angular velocity (since it's higher at close range). Lokis are some of the only ships with the ability to further deal with this by webbing the target. Based on the killmails, you were dealing with artillery Lokis which can absolutely take advantage of that.

[Ithugor Wells]

To add some background as to why we picked a nano doctrine:

At the time we were calling for ships, we had about five people x up. Small ships seemed too small for two strategic cruisers and a battleship. Based on the killboard for the mega, it seemed to do more DPS and rep harder than 3 Augs + whatever DPS. I ddn't feel comfortable taking out heavy armor at all.

So someone suggested Nano as it would at least mean the Mega would be a non-issue (admittedly I forgot about the webs) and we might have the chance of being able to do enough damage.

I'd be up for suggestions of what to take against Lokis and other strategic cruisers as I never have any idea of what to take against them.

----

Some random notes about the nano engagement. The Mega managed to escape before we fought it. We did have someone lemming-warp to the hole but they interpreted my burn away as warp back. I then hesitated and warped in too slowly to catch it (I didn't want to land on it).

I was trying to figure out what to do about a bunch of cloaked T3Cs and I think it would have been better if I kept moving and tried to find the Megathorn (assuming it was still in system. I can't remember).

[Marcus Arilia]

You can’t really go wrong with a Kitsune. If you’re going nano it can stay a little bit behind fleet and target their tackle (in this case the Loki), and of brawling can cruise around at range helping break logi, or whatever is causing you problems. If taking out a nano doctrine a Keres can also do a great job of reducing their ability to apply if nano v nano. You either force them off or can outrange them. Especially for lower SP fleets, well flown break/damp ewar can be a significant force multiplier and defensive tactic.

[Ithugor Wells]

Ah, cool. I was worried about our DPS of we brought a EWAR ship but even if we didn't end up having though DPS to break them, it might have at least reduced our losses?