[AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

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Amoni Panala
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[AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Amoni Panala »

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"The bearing fleet is as happy as Yogi Bear at a picnic." - My last words before everything went wild


Roam members (31)
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Amiee O'Leary
Amoni Panala - Enyo, Blackbird
Analee Tsasa - Republic Fleet Firetail
Callum Aishai
Cedric Redfist - Talos
Charlotte Talvanen - Purifier
Che Galtor - 'Packrat' Mobile Tractor Unit, Osprey
Devola Gestalt - Scythe Fleet Issue
DonBasuno Ichosira
Eir Geiravor
Erywin Chelien - Oracle
Esca Sinak
Iam Nota Bot - Inquisitor
Julien Alaphilippe
Kiuna McGullygosh - Federation Navy Comet
Lennart Garsk
Loron Garns - Bellicose
Macilles - Oracle
Pipos Lafisques - Federation Navy Comet
Rainton Rainz - Vargur
Sone Eto
Tau Hopper - Tornado
Thijs59 - Federation Navy Comet
Tolerin Escipion - Scythe
Tyera Azrael - Pilgrim
Williath Douglas
Willuw Everquest - Stratios, Ferox
Yto Itinen
Zokr McLan
Zoltan Irvam - Oracle, Mobile Tractor Unit
shureer Yassavi
Looking at the ISK lost and all, it can be easy to lose sight of what really happened. Here's how everything went down.

After an hour and half of form-up, travel, and painstaking effort to accommodate the fitting needs of our guests. We split up into two groups: our harvester fleet went to our C3 static to shoot rats and I led the small ships fleet through a lowsec connection to nullsec where Dotlan indicated some heavy ratting activity. It was not the ideal route, as I was far more interested in locations where I had seen PVP activity, but that would require venturing through a connection with a wormhole that was end of life and I didn't want to risk a 32 jump return home. As we were making our way into nullsec, we were notified that there was some potential action to be had in our C3 chain. I started leading the PVP fleet back to Jspace, but as we were leaving a Hecate, Drekavac, and Helios started tailing us. They caught one of our logi one the way and podded them home. I was really frustrated, but I couldn't stop and risk losing the rest of the fleet when there would be no backup.

We played a game of cat and mouse with the enemy, our harvester fleet docked up, and eventually determined that they were not going to come out and play. The harvester fleet was going to stay in our home hole and run the combat anomalies there. They quickly realized the spawns were bad and agreed that they were willing risk being bait in our C3 static in order to have anoms that were actually enjoyable. Here's where I made my first mistake. Rainton asked me if he could bring his Vargur and I said he should, "do whatever makes you happy, follow your bliss!" As the PVP group of Noobs Night in the Hole reassembled back in our home hole, I got noticed that a Sabre warped into the harvester fleet. We undocked and warped to the C3 to protect the harvester fleet. The harvester fleet informed us the Sabre was dead and we had a good chuckle. The next thing I know I hear, "hey can you guys help us? We're dying over here" That when WHC and NNitH fleet merged and warped into something I didn't have any idea. Here was where I made the next few mistakes. Our bearing fleet was in a separate comms from us which meant that someone had to switch channels to talk to the rest of us. The next mistake we made was engaging a Drake Navy Issue fleet in armor-tanked ships while in Pulsar. I didn't even realize this second mistake until I had called for a bigger doctrine of armor ships and someone reminded me of our C3 static's pulsar status. I then called for our basic shield doctrine and we warped in on them.

They destroyed us, but only because we they had upshipped to a doctrine that was way beyond what we had anticipated. I did not realize just how much they were bringing to the table. We brought sticks to a gun fight, then we brought knives. It just wasn't enough. They were fun fights, but I made a lot of mistakes. By having a Vargur on field, we invited our enemies to upship into something that could take it down with overwhelming force. Admittedly, the Vargur held out long enough for us to reship into armor and then into shield doctrines. Before Noobs Night in the Hole had begun, someone told me to keep in mind that our C3 was a pulsar, but when it mattered most I had already forgotten.

To all our Noobs Night in the Hole folks from the EU timezone: please make sure you've filled out the SRP form and under campuses you selected "WHC" and choose the ship you were flying. Unfortunately the harvester doctrine is not SRP-able, but you should have received an EVEMail explaining how we are addressing this.

Kills and Losses

(20:02:58) J142306
Purifier -48.18m
Brutix +84.04m

(20:10:18) J114648, D85-VD
'Packrat' Mobile Tractor Unit -62.03m
Inquisitor -5.66m
Capsule -0.01m

(21:15:09) J114648, J211936
Sabre +93.06m
Tornado -81.14m
Osprey -24.26m
Capsule -33.61m
Oracle -115.16m
Capsule -0.01m
Oracle -129.64m
Federation Navy Comet -48.79m
Enyo -52.66m
Federation Navy Comet -22.41m
Capsule -0.01m
Mobile Tractor Unit -88.25m
Vargur -2514.15m
Bellicose -31.98m
Oracle -98.51m
Oracle -137.56m
Scythe -24.77m
Capsule -0.01m
Ferox -72.58m
Federation Navy Comet -28.62m
Capsule -0.01m
Blackbird -18.58m
Capsule -17.75m
Republic Fleet Firetail -18.39m

(21:41:10) J114648
Mobile Tractor Unit -42.18m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 177,093,103.15
ISK Lost: 3,716,931,255.84
ISK Delta: -3,539,838,152.69
Efficiency: 4.548%

Overall evaluation
  • (Positive stuff)
    - Great reshipping responses from everyone
    - Che was incredibly helpful and managed our harvester fleet well
    - Our NNitH people really stepped up to their roles and did me proud
    (Negative stuff)
    - Did not keep in mind the pulsar status of our C3
    - Did not take into account what kind of response a Vargur would invite
    - Got overly flustered with how long it took to get the ball rolling
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Devola Gestalt
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Devola Gestalt »

o/

First thanks for the fleet. Following write-up is posted in hope it'll be useful to understand what happened and do better next time. I had great fun during this fleet & would do it again. Thanks to all the organisers !

Formup

Form-up was indeed extremely slow, mainly due to the time to hand ships. Couple suggestions on that:
  • Allow SS ships in the travel fleet. Less ships to give in Innu this way.
  • Distribute PVE/PVP ships in parallel. This can easily done by separating PVE & PVP folks early when arriving at dormitory (different squad or fleet or chat).
  • Low SP pilot: add a real day-1 newbro fit to the NNitH doctrine (I'm not suggesting a change to the SS doctrine, just a fallback for young NNitH daytrippers who can't fly any of the WHC minimal requirements). It could be a simple T1 frigate, as flying a Faction one isn't really an upgrade until you have Racial Frigate trained at 4. Example of Day-1 Punisher as a "downgraded" Slicer:
    Spoiler
    [Punisher, WHC day-1 punisher]

    Extruded Compact Heat Sink
    Damage Control I
    'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
    'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
    200mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates

    1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
    J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor

    Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
    Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
    Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
    Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S

    Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
    Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
    Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
    4M Jita sell, so we could easily have a decent stockpile ready at dormitory. Only requires Amarr Frigate I and Small Energy Turret I: if someone queue that at the beginning of the travel fleet, he is ready by the end of the form-up in WHC.
Bacon's fight

Point of view from the bearing fleet.

So we decide to bait in Bacon. We run 1 or 2 sites without incident. I see a friendly Comet in the middle of our pack: I assume he's playing eyes for the PVP FC. Buzzard on D-scan (given the naming pattern, I'll deduce later that it's from the corp who'll drop us): I just report to fleet chat and don't mind it.

Incoming sabber: bearing FC call to shoot him down, and down he goes. However most of the fleet is deep into a bubble. Next time we bait, I think we should order BCs to spread on grid at 10-15km or so from each other, to make it harder to land nice bubbles on them. Maybe we could also have swapped a Tracking computer for an afterburner on the Tornados & Nagas.

Next comes the expected doomsdrop. 4 Drake NI, 2 Basilisk, plus other support cruisers. I'm not very knowledgeable of J-space PVP, but my uneducated guess at this time was that if the PVP fleet in Innu joined fast we could have a decent trade. Looking at fleet chat, the enemy fleet was reported, so I assumed backup was on its way and we just had to survive on grid until they come. Lachesis is called primary by Bear FC, but we can't apply enough DPS to break through 2 Basis. After what seemed at least 1 or 2 min, the bearing fleet was half way to the killboard. And I saw no incoming Uniblob. I heard no scatter order, but at some point I decided to burn away from the mess. My poor Scythe FI got tackled. But miraculously after overheating props and hardeners, I was able to get out of point and warp away at 80% hull. When I warped back to *Bacon, I finally saw the Uniblob. And I think all that was left of the bears was me & an Osprey.

TL;DR: I think things went wrong mainly because of lack of (common) comms. Situation should have been transmitted faster to PVP FC, and one of the following should have immediately happened:
  • PVP Fleet jumps & warps to our rescue: Bearing fleet is ordered to hold the grid somehow.
  • PVP Fleet FC decides we can't take that: Bearing fleet is ordered to scatter & save what can be saved.
Bonus: The Bearing Scythe FI came back home to tell the tale.
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Amoni Panala
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Amoni Panala »

Devola Gestalt wrote:Form-up was indeed extremely slow, mainly due to the time to hand ships. Couple suggestions on that:
  • Allow SS ships in the travel fleet. Less ships to give in Innu this way.
  • Distribute PVE/PVP ships in parallel. This can easily done by separating PVE & PVP folks early when arriving at dormitory (different squad or fleet or chat).
  • Low SP pilot: add a real day-1 newbro fit to the NNitH doctrine (I'm not suggesting a change to the SS doctrine, just a fallback for young NNitH daytrippers who can't fly any of the WHC minimal requirements). It could be a simple T1 frigate, as flying a Faction one isn't really an upgrade until you have Racial Frigate trained at 4. Example of Day-1 Punisher as a "downgraded" Slicer:
I appreciate this perspective as one of the participants. I didn't want people in doctrine ships for a number of reasons but one of them was the simple fact that if we had to do 15-20 jumps to get to WHC, I didn't want to do it in a bunch of slower-moving frigates. I'm also a big believer in keeping our money in our hands. If we can buy our ships from fellow Unistas (especially industrialists) then that's what I want to do. Hindsight being 20/20, I would have made plans with the Production department to get the ships taken care of.

I'm not really a fan of using non-doctrine ships. People had nearly three whole weeks to contact me about fitting ships and work out any issues with fitting. The fact that that didn't happen isn't something I take responsibility for. I responded to every EVEMail I received about fitting. In my mind, if people want to waste time getting into ships, that's their business. It was frustrating and wore my patience thin, but only because I knew I had made myself available to everyone wanting to come to answer any questions and address anything that might be of concern with regards to fitting. I had discussed this with Conci and we both agreed that we were not going to make up non-doctrine ships for NNitH. I might create a NNitH doctrine specifically for this reason, but this time I wasn't going to do it and I wasn't going to change my mind after announcing the doctrine.

I also didn't realize I had someone helping me. We had another WHC member getting people fitted into ships, but because I don't hear Zoltan on comms often, I thought it was one of the guests. Had I realized I had help, I might have split our efforts between getting SS and harvester fleets shipped up as you suggested. That was, in my mind, one of the biggest things I didn't do well with reshipping.
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Gergoran Moussou
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Amoni Panala wrote:I'm not really a fan of using non-doctrine ships. People had nearly three whole weeks to contact me about fitting ships and work out any issues with fitting. The fact that that didn't happen isn't something I take responsibility for. I responded to every EVEMail I received about fitting. In my mind, if people want to waste time getting into ships, that's their business. It was frustrating and wore my patience thin, but only because I knew I had made myself available to everyone wanting to come to answer any questions and address anything that might be of concern with regards to fitting. I had discussed this with Conci and we both agreed that we were not going to make up non-doctrine ships for NNitH. I might create a NNitH doctrine specifically for this reason, but this time I wasn't going to do it and I wasn't going to change my mind after announcing the doctrine.
Have to agree with this. WHC tries to be as welcoming as possible giving the demands of wormholes, but there are certain lines that have to be drawn.

If you look at wormhole corporations' minimum requirements, you will find barely any which do not require their doctrine battlecruiser (such as a Brutix or Prophecy), doctrine small ship (such as a Confessor, Enyo, or Kikimora), and something else. Most require more than that, such as a Sacrilege, Loki, or Legion. It is possible train into a navy frigate in just a few days focused on it (out of the three weeks' notice before NNitH), whereas other entities' bare minimum requirements would require a few weeks' worth of skill training.

We're as welcoming as possible, but there's a reason why we have minimums.
9th CCI medalist

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Amoni Panala
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Amoni Panala »

I want to be clear that the primary reason I didn't have a special NNitH doctrine that was easier to fit than what we had is that after talking it over with Conci, I had decided on a doctrine and advertised the event with that doctrine. I didn't want to then change what we were flying and create more problems. I'd love to make this event as inclusive as possible and that's why I'd consider making a special doctrine for future NNitH events.

My expectation was that if there issues people had in attending due to fitting ships that they would reach out to me. A couple did, but not nearly the number who I expected to given how many fitting issues we had. Now that I know I can't expect people attending NNitH to do this level of preparation, I can plan accordingly for next time.
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Devola Gestalt
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Devola Gestalt »

Gergoran Moussou wrote:WHC tries to be as welcoming as possible giving the demands of wormholes
Wormholes demands nothing. Demands are made by people, and can be changed by these people. My 1st wormhole dive was in an exploration Merlin as a clueless 10 day character, with the ugliest fit you could imagine. The wormhole & J-space system behind it didn't complain or didn't prevent me from jumping.

If some people happen to go to NNitH formup without being able to fly one of the doctrine ship (and this is a common case in all Uni events, even if you give the doctrine in advance), there are 3 options:
  1. Trying to make custom fits on the fly for each one of them (takes lot of time).
  2. Have extremely newbro friendly fits ready for them.
  3. Refuse them & send them home.
I agree the organizer is not responsible for people showing up with innappropriate skill. However by addressing them with option 1, the people who pay the price (=wait), are the people who came correctly prepared, which is frustrating.

As for choosing between option 2 and 3, it depends on the doctrine: do putting a newbro T1 frigate in the mix penalize the fleet in any way ? For WHC SS doctrine, I don't think so. I would say it's the opposite: the fleet is better with a T1 frigate DD than with -1 pilot. Compared to the slicer, the punisher move & align & warp at similar speed, with a comparable engagement range. My answer would obviously be different if we were talking about a bomber fleet or an incursion fleet.

Again I'm not suggesting a change in WHC SS doctrine or campus minimal requirements. I'm just proposing ideas on how to address low SP pilots showing up at NNitH events, in hope to be useful.
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Yto Itinen
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Re: [AAR] Noobs Night on the Titanic (NNitH EUTZ)

Post by Yto Itinen »

I am with Devola on this one, having some Day 1 disposable ships is not going to hurt us during the NNitH, the WHC can keep their everyday doctrine for their everyday needs. The time 30 people lost waiting on having meta fits for everyone could have been spared with some cheap T1 fits ready at hand.

As for the actual fleet, I was online until we lost a logi in null and then looked like the other WH group didn't want to escalate.

People barging on comms of an ongoing fleet and talking over the FC is simply bad manners, I know Amoni is trying to be nice, but the Fc has to be firm on that and have them at on QRF channel of their own until we merge fleet.

I really appreciate the event, with some tweaks it will go better next time!

Fly fun!

Yto Itinen
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