AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

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Gergoran Moussou
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AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Route was to be decided based on how many people showed up and what ships they could fly. I was hoping that we'd get the numbers, an interdictor, and a couple of interceptors for it to be feasible to do a Null roam. There were Thera connections to Vay (a system in Verge Vendor near HSC) and a system in Malpais near stuff that seemed like there was something going on in DotLan, so I would have gone for that as the first route that I would think of. However, we did not have that, so I did a route around the usual roaming area for LSC (which is recruiting).

Ievos provided Crows for himself and the other scout, Rysdan, who had never scouted before. While the Stiletto is generally preferred over the Crow, I authorized any interceptor fit covered by Uni SRP.

Space Warfare Development initially showed up in a stealth bomber, as usual. I requested that he reship into something which could be more beneficial to the fleet. Since the only other kind of ship that I've ever seen him fly is a Bifrost and that is something which could be really useful to the fleet, I requested that he fly it.

Ithugor Wells, the LC, has flown much more logi than I have, so I delegated to him the task of explaining cap-chains and things like that to the new logi pilot Paddy Alfrir.

After explaining to everyone a newbro speech which focused on responding to fleet commands and anchoring, I undocked and set out.

We found a fight in VLI after the scouts found some substantial activity from Rogue Caldari Union. I decided to take the fight before heading into Oicx. First, on the gate to ALD. Scout found some flashies, I warped the fleet in at 30 to try getting a range advantage. We warped off to a safe because I thought that the situation was untenable when a Legion came through the gate. I fleet-warped everyone off to a planet and Ievos made us a safe which we warped us to. My next plan was to go through the gate to Oicx and attempt to get some distance when they came through the gate. We didn't get enough distance from the gate before they came through behind us. A Crow, all logi, and a few Caracals went down fast. I ordered everyone to align out and scatter after depleting their magazines and Ievos got another safe, but we got a few kills.

After this, we took a loop around before heading back to Eugales. Two stragglers joined, Space Warfare Development caught up with us in his Bifrost and Kirsid Tanaway in his Hawk, but we did not encounter a fight on the way home. One of the people who had never flown in a fleet before, aints, got separated from us because he didn't have his overview configured properly and didn't know where I was telling us to warp to (I think he also missed the route link in fleet chat) and got picked off.
Roam members (13)
Spoiler
Falling Snow KumaMoto - Osprey
Gergoran Moussou - Caracal
Gramad Aideron - Caracal
Ievos - Crow
Ithugor Wells - Osprey
Paddy Alfrir - Osprey
Rogue Ozran - Caracal
Rysdan - Crow
Space Warfare Development
Tyrion Edwardes - Caracal
Valeria Rammstein - Caracal
Zako Maken - Caracal
aints - Caracal
Kills and Losses

(01:30:12) Vlillirier
Crow -41.3m

(01:36:04) Oicx
Tormentor +18.37m
Osprey -20.35m
Vexor +60.03m
Jaguar +46.1m
Caracal -30.67m
Osprey -20.35m
Osprey -9.91m
Caracal -14.12m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.94m
Caracal -28.06m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

(01:50:49) Innia
Caracal -13.74m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 124,499,915.57
ISK Lost: 179,484,513.53
ISK Delta: -54,984,597.96
Efficiency: 40.956%

Overall evaluation
  • (Positive stuff)
    Was a fun fight. Fast-paced and exciting. It might have been the most adrenaline-filled fight I've ever FCed since I haven't had many experiences of commanding actual fleet fights (usually, it's either that we gank lone targets with too large numbers for any resistance to be feasible or that our slow, brawling T1 ships get torn apart by nano-kite ships with a lot of T2 and faction stuff).
    We got a few kills.
    Surprisingly good ISK-efficiency ratio for having never FCed a skirmish doctrine and only FCed one cruiser fleet before. I don't think the Thorax fleet that I ran last would have been as ISK-efficient as this one had I not arranged a fight with a lone Talos when we got back to Eugales.
    (Negative stuff)
    I'm still thinking of fleet movements ways that would require ships to align and warp as fast as frigates do. Ievos had to remind me that I couldn't just fly back through the gate where we just fought them and escape them that way in cruiser.
    I had trouble calling targets, serving as anchor, and making sure that I was actually shooting all at the same time. In the future, I'd like to try delegating the anchor role to someone else who can focus more on maintaining a good distance from the enemy while not having to call targets and do FC stuff because I over-focused on calling targets and ended up taking too long to adjust to controlling range for the new primary. I already run fleet with the 2IC broadcasting movement commands, so it seems reasonable to do something similar here.
    I should probably cover overview and route settings more in the newbro speech so that people don't get separated like happened in this fleet.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Budda Sereda »

Congrats, looks as a good fleet! You are right about engagement: this type of fight is interesting and fun, much better than bobbing or being blobbed. Keep flying that!

One thing I did not get is how did it happen so you jumped through the gate and they followed you. If they already were on your side of the gate, why jumping?

The first time when you warped fleet at 30km, I'd warp it at 50km instead. Thier fleet was big enough to engage you, and 30 km is too close. Problem with 50km is that not all unistas would have missiles range to apply on this range, but 1) opponents would come closer anyway, 2) it's better a few ships be out of range to opponents rather than their fleet can apply to all you.

One more thing: if they are flashy and you are not: try to wait and see if they start shooting first, this way you might get gate guns on your side. Though, they might also leave.

To quickly position fleet on a gate I'd recommend to have MANY tactical BMs around gate you roam. For myself, I created set around EACH gate on a typical roaming way from Stacmon to Kama. I have BM above AND below gate at 150km and 300km. This allows me to warp at 100km to my 150km bm and appear 50km from a gate very fast.

Regarding 2IC and anchor.
Yes, you need assistance from others, especially while you are learning. But the majority of alliances FCs do that all themselves, and also dualboxing 1-2 other ships, so keep this in mind and don't give up on running all functions
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Budda Sereda »

And remind people to train missile skills :)
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Raido Kudonen
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Raido Kudonen »

Gergoran Moussou wrote:Ievos provided Crows for himself and the other scout, Rysdan, who had never scouted before. While the Stiletto is generally preferred over the Crow, I authorized any interceptor fit covered by Uni SRP.

Space Warfare Development initially showed up in a stealth bomber, as usual. I requested that he reship into something which could be more beneficial to the fleet. Since the only other kind of ship that I've ever seen him fly is a Bifrost and that is something which could be really useful to the fleet, I requested that he fly it.
Honestly, the Crow should not be covered by Uni SRP. At some point one has to create incentives for good training choices instead of bad ones.

Ievos deserves credit for his support for other scouts, though!

The thing with Space Warfare is a good example of FCs stepping up and reinforcing proper expectations for fleet members. You did well.
Gergoran Moussou wrote: (Negative stuff)
I'm still thinking of fleet movements ways that would require ships to align and warp as fast as frigates do. Ievos had to remind me that I couldn't just fly back through the gate where we just fought them and escape them that way in cruiser.
I had trouble calling targets, serving as anchor, and making sure that I was actually shooting all at the same time. In the future, I'd like to try delegating the anchor role to someone else who can focus more on maintaining a good distance from the enemy while not having to call targets and do FC stuff because I over-focused on calling targets and ended up taking too long to adjust to controlling range for the new primary. I already run fleet with the 2IC broadcasting movement commands, so it seems reasonable to do something similar here.
I should probably cover overview and route settings more in the newbro speech so that people don't get separated like happened in this fleet.
[/list]
It's totally okay to delegate anchoring etc. In the long term, it would be good if FCC participants (and perhaps mentors) could serve as a de facto FC team for taking care of these tasks.

Uni members are supposed to have their overview sorted during initial orientation, as part of the recruitment process. It feels a little bit off to have that extremely basic set of instructions in a "newbie speech" for a cruiser fleet. I do think that route settings deserve a word or two, as those are very easy to get wrong.

A couple other comments on issues not mentioned in the AAR:

It looks like your gang was probably a little bit small to fight the CURB gang on anything like reasonable terms. Aside from warping at longer range, as Budda suggested, it seems to me that you should have focused a bit more on tackle and maintaining range as much as possible. This may be reinforced by the anchoring issue.

Also, one of your ships had gate guns on the killmail, which suggests that at least that Caracal pilot had some real difficulty following target calls. I don't think that changed much about the fight, but it suggests that that individual (at minimum) was missing some other elements of fleet participation. There's just no reason to ever be taking gate guns when fighting CURB - I don't think I've ever seen one of their members non-flashy.
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Falling Snow KumaMoto
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Falling Snow KumaMoto »

Random logi perspective: I agree with Raido that we were a little outgunned in that fight, and I love that we took the fight anyway. In the first few moments, we were actually holding, and the chaos of the fight was super fun. We got that battle so soon after undock, it was like going to the movie theater and inexplicably they just show the movie, rather than scraping your face with 45 minutes of stupid commercials and previews. Awesome! Was an honor to die like a dog with y'all.

Ithugor was primaried, and miraculously stayed up in deep hull, everything overheated, pulling range. They switched targets around, and finally focused on me. Wisely, they scrammed + webbed me, and I foolishly did not tell Ithugor about this until his functional MWD got him into falloff with his reps, and he told me to catch up. Way too late! I won't make that mistake again, since I saw with 2 ospreys instead of 3, we were doomed!
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Ithugor Wells »

Feedback
Gergoran Moussou
A thing I should have told you to do but forgot as I was distracted was to ask for everyone's range at the start (with Fury if they can use T2 missiles). Ideally you want people to have about 40km range and with anyone significantly less than this in other ships.

So, near the beginning we were sitting off gate and shooting stuff that was at zero on it. I've certainly made this mistake before, but since we didn't have anyone on the other side (and were ourselves not close enough to jump), this was a pretty fruitless exercise as they could always just jump. We also didn't have any webs to stop someone from crashing gate. It might be ok to have the scout tackle people in the hope they mess up and red-box, but I would suggest against having the rest of the fleet shoot.

Another good idea would have been to get one of your scouts to get you >150km off the gate (at least 200km is better) so you can get to a tac and then get the other scout to tackle someone. That way you can warp to them after the tackle and hopefully secure a kill.

Also, at one point someone mentioned that you weren't moving. Although you were correct that you don't always need to be moving, I think you were wrong in your reasoning. We didn't need to be moving at that time as nothing significant was happening near us. However, as a missile fleet, you can afford to be moving around at weird angles as missiles don't care about transversal. There is some nuance with missile range though: Due to how missiles have to physically fly towards the target, you want your opponent to be chasing you (effectively increasing range as they will be running into your missiles) and not you to be chasing them. All that is to say, you'll want to do more than just keep range.

I also strongly recommend creating videos for at least your own edification. It's really hard to remember what happens after the fact unless you have something to remind you (for example, we didn't warp to a planet when escaping from the VLI gate, we warped to 10km off the Oicx gate).

Due to the lower mobility of cruiser fleets, it's also a good idea to do more fleet warps. For example, that would have been a good thing to do when bouncing off the Oicx gate (a Stiletto could have totally picked one of us if it realized we were individually warping) and when entering into Oicx itself.

For entering Oicx itself, it might have been a good idea to warp and then hold on the gate and hope they aggressed so you can jump and split the enemy fleet (if you wanted to engage them there). Another trick that might be worth trying (since the entire enemy fleet was on gate) would be to jump everyone through and wait for the opponent and then decloak one person. Then hopefully the enemy fleet primaries that person which gives a single target for logi to focus on and hopefully gives the rest of the fleet time to get out of range of the gate.

Eventually you will run into fleets made up of mostly the same ships, so I recommend in getting into the habit of both broadcasting targets and calling the pilot name instead of just the ship (e.g. if shooting at John Smith in a Garmur, broadcast it and say "fire at J-O-H, J-O-H in the Garmur" or similar).

I do recommend that when a newbie gets lost, to take the time to pause and let them catch up. Especially if you aren't actively being chased or chasing something.

You did do a good in that you kept calling targets even while we were all dying while also getting the scout to get a safe.

For Rysdan:
Trying to get a tackle on that one group was a good thing. However, you need to tell your FC so that they are both aware of the opportunity and in a good position to take advantage of it.

Logic Anchor/Commander AAR
Paddy Alfrir was super new to logi-ing so I got to help them set everything up and go over basics. Ideally someone would go through frigate logi first to learn the basics, but nobody was stepping up so Paddy got to jump in the deeper end.

There wasn't too much for logi to do while we were sitting on the ALS gate in VLI. The main fleet wasn't being engaged and Rysdan was sadly very out of position. It would have been a good opportunity to practice keeping up transversal while maintaining position though.

For foreshadowing, after we warped to a safe, once we set up the cap chain again I received suspect status. I'm not entirely sure where this is from, but maybe someone repped Ievos after we landed at the safe?

Once we entered Oicx, things got a bit hairy though. When Gregorian called to anchor on him, I also started to move (and told Logi to break gate cloak). I probably should have waited a bit to break cloak to a) not make us the first few targets and b) see where the FC was going so I can better position myself.

I should have told the FC that logi had suspect status as this let the two non-flashies point logi without reprisal. It also means that the FCs attempt to not engage until fired upon would not work as the enemy could freely fire at the logi.

I also took too long to tell the FC that we were breaking. Though maybe we actually weren't (I eventually was stabilized at barely any hull, but Falling Snow fell quickly, partially due to me doing a bad job at getting reps on him).

For positioning during this fight, I originally choose the wrong direction to go (I just wanted to burn range). I also wasn't keeping good track of where my fellow logi was or what state they were in. Assuming I found out that a bunch of my logi was stuck on the gate, should I have stayed there as well and just tried to wait out the weapons timer to jump us all through to safety?

Evaluation
  • Got the newbro reasonably up to speed on their first logi adventure.
    Probably want to wait to break gate cloak until after the main fleet
    Need to keep the FC aware of logi suspect status and holding/not holding status
    Need to get logi friends to say if they can or cannot follow me e.g. due to tackle
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Ithugor Wells »

Logi FC Video:
Raw
Oicx battle
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Budda Sereda
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Budda Sereda »

Uni members are supposed to have their overview sorted during initial orientation, as part of the recruitment process. It feels a little bit off to have that extremely basic set of instructions in a "newbie speech" for a cruiser fleet. I do think that route settings deserve a word or two, as those are very easy to get wrong.
Yup, very good point: overview should be tought to setu while joining E-Uni. This is literally the very 1st step for any PvPer. I'd strongly recommend E-Uni management to ensure onboarding team does this for every newcomers.

I'd like to express my thoughts on Raido's comment:
Raido wrote:It looks like your gang was probably a little bit small to fight the CURB gang on anything like reasonable terms. Aside from warping at longer range, as Budda suggested, it seems to me that you should have focused a bit more on tackle and maintaining range as much as possible. This may be reinforced by the anchoring issue.
The engagement started by killing Tormentor, Vexor, and Jaguar. While losing Osprey, and later Caracal, and 2 Ospreys, and another Caracal.
So it was on not that bad for E-Uni. It was probably not the best engagement to pick... and CURB + Exodus are good corps and I was busted by them often. Yet:
1. You never learn from fights you don't take.
2. E-Uni fleet had 3 logies, while (I assume?) opponent had none
3. There are not that many even fights in EVE
4. Kiting Caracals MUST be able to stay out of range for that Drake Navy.

So depending on other circumstances, I'd pick the fight. Maybe not when fleet just started, but if during 30-60 minutes of roaming you cant find a fight, this one is ok to get into. Just tell the fleet that "we are most likely gonna whelp". Usually, this type of statement just make everybody more eager to fight :)

Yeah, 1-2 Caracals might be scrammed by fast tackles,... but with 3 logies on grid - that's a good thing to have: while they try to break logies, you kill tackles. In this case, I believe, mistake was tactical: you jumped through the gate and did not have much time to pull the range. Ok, keep learning.

Few more things:

1. In this particular engagement, I'd say instead of Vexor and Jaguar FC should have primaried first T1 frigates (Tormentor and Tristan), later Confessors, and later Maguses. The later 2 are kind of sketchy and could just run, but then you clear the fleet of tackles and can pull the range, and/or warp away from the grid, at this time your pilots might all start having issues with reload.

2.
I ordered everyone to align out and scatter after depleting their magazines ...
a) Not sure what exactly you mean here, but once you asked fleet to align out they should warp to whatever they aligned.
b) You better align the whole fleet to the same target. One of the easiest is the sun, but often your enemy will also warp to the sun. And even if you call to warp at 100km, someone always warps at 0 and get caught. Next time, try to open your 'warpaway' tab in overview, broadcast one of moons, and ask the fleet to align to it. Also , MWD ON.
c) I hope you did not tell people to warp away 1-by-1 'after depleting their magazines': the less people you would have on grid, the lesser is chance they'd kill anything and higher chance they get caught. Instead, you have to warp the fleet when you think it is the right time.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Yeah, still be careful with CURB and Exodus :)
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Budda Sereda »

A thing I should have told you to do but forgot as I was distracted was to ask for everyone's range at the start (with Fury if they can use T2 missiles). Ideally you want people to have about 40km range and with anyone significantly less than this in other ships.
I don't remember the expected BLAP Caracal's range for unistas. With L5 and faction missiles it is 63km, -10% is 55km. So 50-55km is the range you have to aim. With E-Uni low skills, maybe 45-50, but not less this is getting too close to the enemies fleet. Drake Navy with Javalins might reach you at 35-38 km. You don't want 500 extra dps applied to your fleet...
Another good idea would have been to get one of your scouts to get you >150km off the gate (at least 200km is better) so you can get to a tac and then get the other scout to tackle someone. That way you can warp to them after the tackle and hopefully secure a kill.
Good point, but ... sorry that I keep repeating this: get yourself a set of BMs. FCC has around 300 low-sec BMs... get those and use them.
If nobody has a copy, tell me in-game, I'll make it if you promise to make at least 3 copies and share it with others. thanks Breeze One!
Another trick that might be worth trying (since the entire enemy fleet was on gate) would be to jump everyone through and wait for the opponent and then decloak one person. Then hopefully the enemy fleet primaries that person which gives a single target for logi to focus on and hopefully gives the rest of the fleet time to get out of range of the gate.
And even better, let that bait-person to just jump through the gate without agressing anything.
Assuming I found out that a bunch of my logi was stuck on the gate, should I have stayed there as well and just tried to wait out the weapons timer to jump us all through to safety?
I never had a good experience waiting the timer on the gate under fire. If you hae 3 cap chain logies and get shot by a single enemy ship you should be fine. But if you have opponents fleet on you, i'd better squad warp my logie. Yes, if you have logy FC, Id recommend you to be in a separate squad and you to be squad lead. Also, you have to be in a separate comms channels and you should be able to whisper.

One more thing, for each E-Uni fleet, I'd recommend immediately after undock, just near the station try to do:
a) anchoring
b) logy cap chain
Make sure it works BEFORE you roam: it is better to spend 1-2 extra minutes than lose few guys later
Also, keep reminding logies to establish the cap chain EVERY DAMN time you sit on a gate. If they don't do that without your order they should feel bad.
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Ithugor Wells »

Budda Sereda wrote: I don't remember the expected BLAP Caracal's range for unistas. With L5 and faction missiles it is 63km, -10% is 55km. So 50-55km is the range you have to aim. With E-Uni low skills, maybe 45-50, but not less this is getting too close to the enemies fleet. Drake Navy with Javalins might reach you at 35-38 km. You don't want 500 extra dps applied to your fleet...
Ah, is it typical to load Navy ammo and not the extra damage ammo (fury)? I was basing it off the latter.
Budda Sereda wrote: I never had a good experience waiting the timer on the gate under fire. If you hae 3 cap chain logies and get shot by a single enemy ship you should be fine. But if you have opponents fleet on you, i'd better squad warp my logie. Yes, if you have logy FC, Id recommend you to be in a separate squad and you to be squad lead. Also, you have to be in a separate comms channels and you should be able to whisper.
Ah, I should have mentioned that I was pointed during that entire fight and I think at least one other logi was as well. So my question was with regards to the "all of logi is tackled" scenario. Is this information that I should convey to the FC?
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

BLAP Caracal range depends on skills, of course. The T2 contract that I picked up for the fleet only came with Rage, so my max was 33. That was around the range that I remember having when I first flew a T1 BLAP Caracal with low missile skills a few months ago with faction ammunition. Since my range with mostly IV's in the relevant skills was around as much as a low-skilled pilot using longer-range ammunition, I decided that 30km would be a good engage range.

On the Oicx gate, my idea of going through and trying to get distance from the gate before they came in after us was also why I said to wait for them to aggress. I wanted a fight, but since I knew we were outgunned, I was trying to get gate guns on my side.

As for Budda not being sure what "I ordered everyone to align out and scatter after depleting their magazines" means, forgot to tell everyone to align out. When I saw that the fleet was breaking, I wanted everyone to finish firing the missiles loaded in their current magazines and then warp off. I should have said to align off while firing. Having everyone align to different celestials is likely something that works for frigate fleets but not cruisers, though. So in the future, I'll call a specific planet to break off (part of Glen Burney's feedback on my Thorax fleet a couple of weeks ago was that I should work on this too).

I requested the bookmark set but I've had no response. Mike Kingswell and Ky Hanomaa asked more recently than me in that forum thread (Ky logged off today and will not have internet on for three weeks, because of Swiss military obligations, so I don't know if you'll be able to give it to him for a while). That forum thread also has Dexyr Sulvara and Savannah Tokila asking in May, I don't know if they received them, and before that, the most recent thread activity was July of last year.

I have a few bookmarks around various places in Placid/Black Rise, LSC's area of operation, because that was the only area where I did PVP prior to moving to the WHC (aside from a couple of fleets that went through wormholes to somewhere else, Raido led one of those as a mixed Uni/Fweddit fleet).
Last edited by Gergoran Moussou on 2019.08.27 09:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Ievos »

First, I do want to say the fleet led to an enjoyable fight. I was happy to partake, and look forward to going on more of your fleets in the future.

Second, to the opinion brought up that the Crows shpuld not be SRP eligible, I would point out that the Crow is listed on fleet-up as part of the BLAP Caracal fleet. Also, without the Crows, there would have been no interceptors. This shouldn't be a surprise, as the only Min ships used in our fleets tend to be (at this time) for scout/tackle, and even then it is usually only the Stiletto. While Min Frig 5 is next in my training queue, it is only there because I fly scout so much. I do not believe I have any other reason to push that near the top of my queue.

Lastly, to the fleet in general, I think there were far more newer players that were expected, and fewer experienced ones. This led to some awesome members taking to stepping up to fill the roles needed, but also led to some frustration and losses. I don't know if there is any easy fox to this, but perhaps more time spent reviewing the "how to's and what for's" of fleets. I know you didn't plan on a "Noobs on Patrol" style fleet, but in hindsight some more running though the basics may have helped everyone, including you getting a feel for warp-out times.

Just some of my thoughts. I believe everyone learned something, and a few learned a lot. And, again, I am happy I went out with the fleet and look forward to your future fleets.


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Re: AAR BLAP Caracals 08/25

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Regarding Budda's suggestion that we begin with an anchoring and cap-chain exercise, that did happen. Ithugor took Falling Snow and the brand-new logi guy Paddy out while Caracal and Crow pilots were on their way to the form-up station to go over cap-chain. When the Caracals undocked, I made sure to go over anchoring before we left the system.

And regarding the idea that I might not want to take the fight unless the roam had been going for some time without a fight, my experience operating out of LSC earlier in the summer (was my primary campus from late June until I moved to WHC four weeks ago today, even before, I was doing a lot of solo roams in the area) and the LSC-area fleets that I've done since gave me the impression that this would be likely occur, so I just decided to take the first fight that I saw.
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