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Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.24 21:57
by Budda Sereda
Kontxesi Buchanan wrote:Shame this didn't get run in lowsec where it would have actually been interesting.

I'm glad it is not only me who rose the same concern. +1 for having it in low-sec. Were we afraid of 3rd party? So what? We could kill it first as we did in the past: ... 6&t=109528

Kontxesi Buchanan wrote:I guess things had to be kept nice and snuggly for it to go as planned. Which it did
I can confirm intention was really different, though, how could regular unistas with traditionally low skills break 10 Nestors?
When it got clear that Union does not have 50 Vexors, the plan should have been changed.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 00:21
by Decklin Quark Reiger
I was hoping to participate with the Unistas, but since the event was in high sec, I couldn't.

Might I suggest that for the rematch you do hold it in low sec, with a Cyno jammer or something?

That opens up the a ability to use command destroyers, and also lets alumni join in the fun :)

Obviously it's best for a Unista to get the experience of FCing, and even better when it's not just a 5 minute welp.

One other learning point I just thought of is that when planning a doctrine fleet, arranging to have ships in contract is very helpful, especially when the doctrine hasn't been used much recently.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 03:46
by Biwako Acami
I suggest C5-C6 black hole space. Jump in, roll the exit, winners leave with loot and corpses (if you have probers left). Winning team can conduct free-for-all if there is dispute on corpses. All while playing Mad Max Fury Road soundtrack on loop in the background.

Edit: On the fight itself I don't have much to add. I fumbled on broadcasting for reps the second fight and got taken into structure but after that the switches back to me were predictable and I was prelocked by the management side.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 05:55
by Laser Skaron
Staberinde wrote:To be fair guys, it was clearly a fun event those of us out of Uni don't understand.

I mean just look at the pages and pages of replies by unistas who had a great time shooting their leadership.

That's a bit cruel, but it didn't feel great for most of the event. Despite that there's been plenty of learning points. I also don't see any thoughtful comments from the non-management players involved regarding either the event or the fights, so... here goes...

1. Only management keeps saying fights were close, but as the dude in charge of the logi wing I see how fast and consistent we're dropping, landing reps, this was not a close fight, not even by a long shot. Management claims 1 nestor down and we cascade into winning, no way, we had swarms of ECM for the second fight. Even temporarily when multiple reps were unavailable you could hold for a very long time. You had at least 1.2-1.8x (haven't done the actual math, number could be way higher...) repping power compared to our DPS and could easily hold. On our end we were locking targets in 25-30% armor and we were buying time.

According to zkill, we only took down 1 Rokh. This was NOT a close fight. You also have to consider the cascade on our end, if by the time we drop 1 battleship we had lost 10-15% of our DPS, that's still way in your favor.

We only killed 1 Rokh AND we had incoming reps from the enemy Nestor fleet at times.

2. I flied very poorly during the fist fight. Anchored the logi wing, took them at range, than got damped into a 16km lock range, panicked a bit, had to bring the logi wing close, then died first. I haven't yet had to deal with damps when anchoring the logi wing (mostly because we tend to fly frigate logi more often than cruisers) and I'm sure that would have been a better way to handle that. Regardless, am a bit sad I had to quickly delegate LC job to someone else (I think it was Torg, good job for picking up the chant). Reshipped, came back to the 2nd half of the first fight.

3. I'm happy to say the Vexor fleet performed much better in several aspects during the 2nd fight. With lower numbers both in DPS and in logi. We discussed broadcasting for reps in more depth, how fast we were losing people, and for the less experienced pilots I congratulate you. You gave the logi wing a much easier time. Also, I got to be in the second fight a lot longer (was primaried the first one, that's ok). This is pretty basic, but with a 45 man unista gang, lots of the people would have been new there, and good job guys, mad props on the performance difference between the two fights.

I also did a lot more micro management for the logi wing and that went great. This is one of the few times when I've explicitly called for people to stop repping at times when I saw agro switches and I was more liberal with calling for heat. I remember ending the fight with ~80% heat on all my high slots, happy with that. Despite not being enough, I could see the difference in performance (how fast we manage to switch reps on a new broadcast).

4. This was a rare event, one in which the management advertises it wants to lose ships to provide content, probably raise corp morale, and have a bit of fun. I think it's ok that ended up not happening. I'd always take a good fight where we trade constantly and we end up losing. But we were there just feeding the grinder, we were not scratching a dent. It felt like we were just forcing a losing fight. In pretty much any other context (against an actual foe) I would have called for scatter after 1-2 minutes.

5. We really need to get our most common or recommended doctrines stocked in all campuses to be able to reship fleets 2-3 times over for these events.

TLDR. I accept the loss, I don't accept the "this was closer than it looked" argument.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 07:21
by Tiberius Auduin
Could attend this event due to last minute change of plans. Didn't have time to ship for doctrine, had a solo dual rep Armageddon lying around Stac, so took that instead. The annoying thing with this kind of fights it's always either one side melts completely in the first 2 minutes or nobody can't break anything.

I definitely underestimated the firing power of the BLAP vexors, but was caught just in 13% structure.


I wasn't flying the doctrine ship so I have no idea how close it was, but it took us much longer to break stuff the second time around. ECM should've been allowed right from the start. Also, I was a drone bunny and after the fight De W Javqe sat uncloaked in his bomber 9000m away from us. I wanted to scram him for a cycle, cause a bomber is either fighting or is cloaked, but this aggressive act had made the drones aggres that were assigned to me. My apologies, I have since reimbursed the loss.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 09:11
by Tonk Omnom
Despite what some people here seem to think, Management never meant to beat the Unista fleet let alone stomp them. Why would we? As far as I know, all Shoot the Management events so far were over in a matter of minutes or even seconds, so we tried to give the Uni a more extensive and fulfilling experience by bringing tankier ships, and reps. But as you can imagine it's a thin line between bringing just enough and too much. We apparently brought too much - lesson learned. As for not allowing ECM, same thing, we thought it would tip the scale too steeply in favour of the Unista fleet. But again, all of this was never done out of malicious intent.

As for headshot-ing the FC, I take full responsibility for that (despite what my evil twin brother said further up), and apologise for doing so. At some point the drone bunnies were ordered to shoot whatever they wanted, and I did. I chose Union's Brutix among others because it was one of the tankier ships, more likely to survive 50 drones plus my lasers. In the heat of the battle, I, unfortunately, did not double-check who I was shooting at.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 17:49
by JohnPlayerNotSpecial
One of those pesky managers died, got a killmark on my ship, am happy.

Was good fun !

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 19:17
by Torg Navatin
Conci Furiram wrote:It was half-half in people catching reps and people blowing up. I hope the half of you blowing up got a feeling of how much earlier you need to broadcast.

Indeed! I think those that broadcasted early or that we saw dipping through shields, Laser's Love Squad managed to hold. But if you're already in armor when we lock you up...those cycles ain't gonna land on time.

Also, the frigate-bros should map broadcasts to something sensible like Ctrl-Alt-Del :lol: Totally not gonna rep that Venture, though it'd been fun. Poor Baldrick kinda fell between the cracks in round #2.

Rematch in low-sec!

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.25 19:20
by Torg Navatin
Tiberius Auduin wrote:caught just in 13% structure.

Y u no heat damage -- could have stayed with us a few seconds longer :twisted:

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.26 08:18
by Tiberius Auduin
Torg Navatin wrote:
Tiberius Auduin wrote:caught just in 13% structure.

Y u no heat damage -- could have stayed with us a few seconds longer :twisted:

Was dualboxing football :P Stayed until the end though, surprised I wasn't switched back to :P

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.26 09:38
by Union Pivo
Since I was the FC for the line mebers (we are all unistas :) ) here are my thoughs :

Before the fight, I caled for BLAP vexors on short notice, since i thought that out of all doctrines we had, people would be trained into them and people would have ships in hangars. (besides calling for BC's would reduce the number of people who can fly them, and caracals are not that great for such engagements)

Form up was bad.
Took us way to long to undock what is supposed to be one of our mainline doctrines. Turns out people didn't have a lot of vexors in hangars. Also a lot of people joined up at the last few minutes so they might have missed the new bro speech (especially the part about broadcasting).

On that note, reshipping after the first fight was almost as painful. If it weren't for Decklin and few other people who donated vexors we couldn't even bring 15 we had for a second fight.

In general, we were lacking ships more than we were lacking people.

I did ask for a scout and he did tell me what (and how many) managemt is bringing. If this wasn't an organized uni event I'd go nope, and go away.

As for the fight itself, it was interesting for me as a fc. This was first time fcing vexors, and i made a few mistakes. I could have keept better range, since vexors use mostly drones and rails are for just added dps, I should have probably called out several guys I know and asked them to just murder drones.
Someone also suggested I could have tried bumping.

We managed to get several nestors in hull, and i tried to switch between them as soon as i saw them catching reps, but we were loosing ships too fast, so we never managed to break them.

Second fight was almost the same, We brought some ecm with us (including my hull tanked ecm-ing brutix :) ), but we had less overall dps (and i think 2 less logi) than in first fight,

I am glad management put up a fight and i got to practice this kind of fleet fight. I don't like preplanned executions. But we can still try to make it more of an intteresting fight. For one it probably should be in lowsec, nullsec or wh.

One of the interesting things we could try and do is practice booshing (and even snaching), I think that 50 people in armor frigates ( with 8 or 10 deacons :grin: ) would probably do better than vexors. Other thing with more notice we could try is bombing runs.

If management can do that more regularly (maybe as often as 1ce per month) when they undock a battleship doctrine(could be t1 to keep the cost down) and we try to figure out a way to "deal" with them. Would probably be fun for them, and good way to practice for the rest of us, fighting against doctrines we usualy don't get to due to numbers.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.26 10:21
by Cassiel Seraphim
Union Pivo wrote:But we can still try to make it more of an intteresting fight.
Perhaps focus on finding more interesting setups that are actually designed to get us killed slowly or some sort of challenge.

Like having management running a gauntlet and see who gets the furthest, free for alls without reps or something that isn't as prone to going wrong as our previous setup. Obviously not fleshed out ideas there, but just to give you a general idea. The idea with Nestors could have worked if we had skipped the drones. That would have made it an interesting "nut to crack" for the line members, how to bump, jam, damp, neut or otherwise disrupt the powerful reps of the Nestor core.
Union Pivo wrote:For one it probably should be in lowsec, nullsec or wh.
Personally I don't see low or null as viable, as it would inevitably be too prone to third party disruption. The wormhole option is doable though and with some effort and planning we could also ensure more ships being available for the next one. To avoid the issue of not having ships around.

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.27 03:47
by Budda Sereda
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:
Union Pivo wrote:
Union Pivo wrote:For one it probably should be in lowsec, nullsec or wh.
Personally I don't see low or null as viable, as it would inevitably be too prone to third party disruption. The wormhole option is doable though and with some effort and planning we could also ensure more ships being available for the next one. To avoid the issue of not having ships around.

WH could be really the option.
But even with low: we can have a fight. If people drop into us sub-caps we could consider giving them a fight. If they drop caps - we can always jump into HS and say them "lol".

In the end, we are teaching corp and we need to teach on how to disengage from unpleasant fights, including drops. How much time passes since the system has cyno until somebody is pointed? We have plenty of time to warp to safe or to HS gate and run away. That's the simplest thing to do. More complicated can be prepare the counter drop :)

Re: [AAR] Shoot the management

PostPosted: 2018.06.27 08:44
by Union Pivo
Buda has a point. Besides Raido is constantly telling us that we need to be more vigilant, having eyes on stagingin of sc and snuff (probably no handelbalrs)
and scouts couple of systems out.

Would be good practice to those of us that are new to this, and teaching opportunity for more experienced players (waves at Titus) to teach us how to do that properly.