Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

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Etienne Darmond
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Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

On Trading and related activities (Part 1 Submitted by E. Darmond, Freshman)

I’ve have very low-end computer equipment and situations in RL where participation in group events is not often possible. Thus trading has been a way for me to build up a substantial bundle of ISK so as to feel confident LOOSING ships when I am able to participate in group pvp activities.

Game-wise trading can be lonely but releasing your inner Ferengi can help with later social pew pew because, as you recall, the first rule of EVE is don’t fly what you cannot bear to loose. It’s easy, even FUN, to loose T1 frigates when you have bank that can buy oooodles of frigates. And ship based PVP is very easily learned in T1 frigates.

I say ship based PVP because, guess what me pirate hearties, marketing and manufacturing ARE forms of PVP! EVE is a complex system of player versus player and player cooperation: including trade and manufacture. Though the trader rivals are relatively face less you can figure out who your customers and suppliers are by looking at your wallet transactions to see who you are buying from and who you are selling to. I haven’t done it yet but you can also use ‘buy’ contracts to purchase the right amount of raw materials in the right place from the people who know to look. You can advertise these contracts through the trading channels on the alliance discord so that corps mates can ‘know to look’. And you can work deals with other players you meet and learn to trust (at least as far as filling a contract goes….many of your eve buddies will gladly eat you if they meet you, all in good fun and sportsmanship of course….).

My experience extends to Jita, Amarr, Dodixie and ICY secondary market in Stacmon (which seems to be coming along daily, it’s a good location, slower than the main hubs, but convenient to UNI, a number of other corps and to null and low sec space.)) (Personal preference follows: I found the trade hubs in Minmatar space to be too slow for my liking, so I’ve only had an alpha alt there to experiment. (Note my finding RENS slow may simply be an artifact of me not paying it the same attention as I have to Dodixie. When I look at EVE economic data for Hek I might find that if I did have an actual trade dedicated omega character there I might do better than Dodixie. But Dodixie it is for me for reasons of closeness to Stacmon and convenience of not getting spread way to far over the galaxy).

Dodixie is very convenient to Stacmon and relatively ‘safeish’ for hauling materials for manufacture and market. It’s slower than Jita and Amarr but still profitable for station trading and selling the right manufactured goods. For selling certain manufactured goods its way more profitable than Jita. Jita tends to be a buyers’ market. Prices are driven down rapidly as people dump their stuff there. But those who dump loot, also buy things……

This is a supplement to the articles posted on the EVE Uni wiki and some materials in archived classes. I’ve also participated in one or two trading classes live, apologies that my stainless steel sieve of a brain can’t be more specific in giving credit where credit is due, but UNI is an awesome corps full of helpful people.

Some things I’ve learned about trading and related activities:

1. The interface can be weird and laggy. Be very careful to double check your entries in the buy and sell interfaces before you finalize them. Sometimes keystrokes don’t register, sometimes the first and second key stroke get written over. So check. It’s way too easy when going through filling a series of empty order slots to get into an automatic approval mode and find yourself out by an order of magnitude or two or three or four….argh.

2. The font EVE online uses is annoying when it comes to numbers. Zeros look like eights for example. This can lead to confusion particularly if you are tired or distracted. Just as you prepare your screen for pvp or pve operations you can prepare your screen for trading especially by you using the controls in settings which depending on your graphics set up can magnify display by up to 150% (this does reduce display area BUT when trading you only really need to see the dialog boxes so reset your display magnification before undocking.)

3. Adjust font to LARGE and set transparency to zero. (settings in your neocomm).

4. When looking at regional market be very careful to rank SELL orders with the lowest price at the top and BUY orders with the highest price at the top. (you do this by double clicking the column label just like in most spread sheet apps.) (If one has them ranked by number of jumps or some other category it’s easy to accidentally pay way too much for something.)

5. Strictly speaking station trading buying and selling at one station. Sometimes there are sell orders that come up at other stations in the region that are a very good deal. If you have patience and are playing a long game, it can be worthwhile to snap up these deals as you notice them and let them accumulate in a cloud around your hub for a few weeks or months and then go out on your own hauling missions to collect them. However, make sure the profit margin on the ‘steal’ price is worth the wait and the eventual haul. Also be careful about low prices in low sec or null sec stations. It’s often not worth the risk. Low sec pirates use such deals as bait to increase traffic through their gate and station camps. You can right click on an order in the regional market that will bring up a drop-down list that includes a location information selection. Clicking on that a dialog box will appear with several tabs. One of the tabs will tell you the sec status of the station where the item is being sold. You can also use the in-game map or a third-party map like dotlan.

6. One of the great things about strict station trading is also one of the most boring. You cannot be attacked. Unless you goof your order entries your ISK is totally safe.

7. When selling or buying look at the volume and the price history. It’s also a good idea to get a feel for the price in different markets using a third-party tool such as evemarketer.com. There are lots of scammers out their trying to inflate the data and have distracted or unaware players buy stuff at horribly high prices. (or sell it to a ridiculously low buy order.)

8. Be careful about changing your orders. Depending on your Character’s skills and standings at the market station this can really eat into your margins. Sometimes it’s worth cancelling an order when you have a few items left and replacing the order with a greater volume of the same item or using the slot for a more profitable item. Sometimes it’s worth just letting the order ride for the market to come back up to your asking prices.

9. Prices for a lot of things in Jita tend to boom and bust on a rapid cycle. If you have the time and you don’t like the current sell price its often worth setting the time period for 3 months and asking for the price you want. If the price you want is reasonably within historical margins the price will soon rise to meet your preference and your stuff might move quite quickly to a high-volume buyer. Amarr is a fairly high-volume market, Dodixie less so, (I found the Minmatar hubs even less so HOWEVER my results there could simply be based on bias for being in Dodixie for other reasons and not giving Rens the same attention. Looking at economic data for Aug 2022 it may be that Rens is as good if not a better hub for station trading that Dodixie.)

10. I don’t station trade in Stacmon, the volume is too low for me to make it work. In Stacmon ICY secondary market I sell mostly medium and small t1 rigs. I tend to set a 3-month period and I tend not to change my orders to undercut the ‘competition’ unless someone has just placed a significantly higher number of items over the number I have remaining to sell. Then I might adjust the price to undercut the larger order and move my stuff faster. Otherwise, I just wait my turn using a longer strategy. Stacmon ICY is a good market, close to our UNI manufacturing & refining and with the advantage of being able to use UNI contacts to source raw materials through uni trade channels. However, it is no Jita….So a different strategy is necessary. It is still quite profitable, just much sloooooower. Yet it seems to be getting brisker everyday as more people are stocking it with a greater variety of desirable goods. The more the merrier. If buyers can routinely find the stuff they want they will come looking.

I usually don’t find it profitable to buy player made items and re sell them. Thus, my station trading buy and resell tends to be loot items only. If it has a blueprint, I tend not to station trade it. You can check for blueprints in the industry tab of the item info box. One exception to this rule has been GIANT containers. I make good money on buying low and selling high. But not on manufacturing them. Weird but true.

If you find this helpful, I’ve got a lot more. Stay tuned. When I am able to rejoin the game I’d be glad to serve as a trading, rig manufacturing, high sec sub freighter hauling mentor (2 years player experience now) even as I seek out a frigate pvp mentor. Anyway posting this is a way for me to keep my hand in with y’all even when I can’t log into EVE.
Last edited by Etienne Darmond on 2022.09.21 23:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Arin Mara
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Arin Mara »

What made you realize Minmatar markets are slower than other main hubs? Did you track goods or do an analysis that you could share?

What are your thoughts on investing in Corporation and Faction Standing to lower the tax rates?
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Etienne Darmond
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

Thanks Arin Mara,

I have no hard data to back my opinion on the Minmatar markets.

It is just that when I was starting out they did not take off the way that Dodixie did AND it does not take hard data to get the feeling that they are slower than Jita. I confess bias to operating in Dodixie space because of its proximity to Stacmon, which may mean that my comparison of Minmatar and Dodixie on station trading is shaky. So with 3 alts to trade with, based on my initial rather unscientific survey, I invested them in Dodixie, Jita and Amarr. If someone has some actual data on Minmatar I'd be interested as well. I admit the interest is rather casual as my alts are fully deployed, but it would be interesting for others thinking of dispersing their alts.

As to investing in corporation and faction standing YES! Definitely worth Caldari Navy standing to trade in Jita, though my trade alt there has very little. Definitely worth Federation navy to trade at Dodixie. My main has very good standing with both Caldari and Federation Navy but he very rarely trades at Jita. My trade alt at Amarr has very little standing with the NPC corp that owns the hub but she does all right (all three of my omega characters have very high trade skills 2 @ tycoon V (Dodixie / Stacmon, Jita) and 1 @ tycoon IV (AMARR))

A note on advancing standing. As Arin Mara likely knows be careful with security missions that require you to shoot empire faction ships. it really lowers your standing with the empire involved. Also be careful with story line missions they raise your standing with one empire but lower it with its rivals. If this is Okay for your purposes go for it, but be aware. My main now has such low standing with AMARR that if he goes any lower he will have to do the SOE 'our man Dagan' thing to avoid having trouble from NPC's while traveling in Amarr space.

The high standing my main has at both Jita and Dodixie allow him to reprocess loot modules without paying a fee, WHICH is very valuable in the long run, and which i can talk about in future notes on activities related to trade.
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

Thanks again Arin Mara for the question on Minmatar data. Just from a very brief glance at the August economic report and the wiki it seems that RENS might well be as good a sport for station trading as Dodixie.
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Adrian Tarmikos »

Great post, Etienne! Thanks for sharing! Looking forward to part 2 :)
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Belta Jer »

Great post, thanks for sharing!

Like you I enjoy station trading mostly because I can do it in little bursts when I need to be able to "pause" the game, so I can't really undock.

Here are some of the tips I would give someone, please feel free to correct me if any of them seem wrong to you!

* Go for the big expensive items! Especially if you're an Alpha, you have limited slots, so don't waste them on small items with small profit unless you are lacking in capital, and if you are, go earn your starter millions somewhere else and invest in some items that generate a real profit.
* Aim for 2x profit on every item, so the sell price should be double the buy price. It limits your options, but gives you leeway to re-list the items many times without risking an actual loss.
* Learn to read the market history charts. I'm still getting the hang of this, but despite being a bit inscrutible, they can show you a ton of information that will help you understand if anyone will actually sell to your buy orders. For example, you can usually tell if an item is player-created from blueprints just from looking at the chart, since it's all selling and no buying.

I've had traders in Amarr and Dodixie, and Amarr really does move faster. I wouldn't want a market any slower than Dodixie, that's for sure. Jita seems a bit too stressful to me, I don't want to be relisting things constantly.
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

Adrian Tarmikos wrote: 2022.09.24 19:11 Great post, Etienne! Thanks for sharing! Looking forward to part 2 :)
Thanks!

I'll roll out some more in weeks to come.
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

Belta Jer wrote: 2022.10.04 18:42 Great post, thanks for sharing!

Good stuff. Yes, everyone is a little different so I don't have any corrections. Readers and contributors must experiment to find their bliss!

Amarr really seems to be a great place for station trading lots of low cost buy items and high price sells and pretty brisk. And yes Jita is a lot of changing of orders.

Amarr's relative isolation since the Trig cut off point on the old pipeline seems to have jolted it up a few gears as a trade hub. But then I was just rejoining the game around that time soooo careful on this point, as on my prejudice against Minni marts I could be a source of plausible mis information.

If anyone is having fun and profit station trading in Miinie land it would be cool to hear about.

ED out o7
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

ED’s Notes on Trading and Related Activities, Part 2.

Hello again. Due to RL circumstances I’m back to a bit of a hiatus from the game so to sooth my EVE compulsions and obsessions we continue with sharing some of what I’ve learned about trading and related activities where I left off in part 1.

1. Some loot items are very profitable and have a high turnover. Some loot items are best recycled. Even if you don’t have the scrap metal processing skill you will get 50% of the materials and charged a facility fee depending on your standings with the corps that owns the station.

2. For some loot items, especially those that tend to have a low ‘buy’ price it is way more profitable to recycle it yourself and sell the minerals than it is to try and hawk the loot on the ‘sell’ market, or sell it to a buy order, or to sell it to the UNI’s buyback program. If you do sell such loot on the public market, you’ll be selling to a pirate such as myself who uses the minerals either for resale or as stock for manufacturing projects. If you sell such loot to the UNI buyback program, you can feel nice that the profits are re invested in our corporation. (And our corp is well worth the investment.) A High scrap metal reprocessing skill takes a while to train but it can lead to some great opportunities for discount minerals from low-market-ISK-value / high-mineral-yield loot.

3. With Max scrap metal skills ED has 55% return on reprocessed modules so I reprocess in multiples of 20 to make sure I get maximum juice out of my squeezed oranges.

4. A clue to such juicy reprocessable loot item as mentioned in 1 above is a series of buy orders almost ridiculously lower than the sell orders. For example if an item is selling for 7,000 ISK but you can buy it for 950 ISK that may be an indication that the minerals are worth just under 7k and you can get them for the bargain price of 951 ISK plus fees, and brokerage. 6 x purchase net profit is pretty sweet!

5. In figuring out the profitability of reprocessing loot items remember to watch your margins re fees, taxes, and brokerage. Calculator scrap paper spread sheets mental math and fingers and toes are all part of the game.

6. You’ll get an idea of mineral return and value by placing something in a station’s recycling dialog box. As long as you don’t follow through by pressing the final button, you get an estimate. Just cancel the transaction if you don’t want to actually reprocess the loot you are examining. The estimate does not necessarily reflect current market, it uses some mysterious CPP algorithm. So fingers toes calculators spread sheets and 3rd party apps are all in order to refine your estimate.

7. There are also third-party tools that help with recycle value such as Adam4Eve.

8. Depending on your various characters skills and standings it can be profitable to buy loot for recycle at trade hubs and haul it yourself to a recycling station. I do this regularly with my alts in Amarr and Jita placing buy orders and my main hauling to Dodixie for processing and on to Stacmon at Uni’s Forge for stockpiling as manufacturing feedstock. That’s because my main has an awesome standing with the Federation Navy so I pay no fees to recycle there. He carries rigs for the alts to sell at those high-volume hubs and comes back with salvage and other things as industrial feedstock. Just be very careful about choke point systems like Uedema and Vacema. Learn from hauling 101 and use tools like check before you jump and Uedema scout.

9. It can’t hurt to have an alpha alt permanently stationed in choke points, so you have real time eyes on gates before you make a decision to haul. AND remember if you can’t afford to lose the cargo AND the ship, don’t fly it. Somedays you will lose, that’s part of the game. Also its often better to haul two or three loads in a small more agile ship than it is to pile it all into a triple cargo extended Iteron V and….well…..Safety. and other high sec predators particularly like to eat those like popcorn (often with a single destroyer)……and such a pile might not even make it safely out of Jita 4,4.(use insta-undocks and instadocks….Jita is a terrible pirate hole…..er I mean a wonderful opportunity to learn evasive tactics as a juicy prey item….)

10. I find a viator (blockade runner) works very well for this kind of triangle trade among the hubs. If you don’t have the skills or can’t afford a blockade runner the cloaking trick on a properly fitted badger is almost as good….

11. best is to watch what is happening at Uedema and avoid times when non-war related kills are happening at gates or there are pilots from known high sec ‘pirate’ corps like Safety. In or near system. You can estimate if a kill is war related or not by looking at the alliances involved in zkillboard. Of course, hauling on a Uni character when Uni itself has been war decked or is cooling down from war dec is not recommended.)

12. Sometimes, not often, I can sell rigs I’ve made for a quick and reasonable profit to a Jita buy order. Be careful though. It happens only occasionally in certain categories of rigs and most buy orders are below the cost of manufacture and materials. I figure when it happens at Jita its because an alliance is stocking up.

13. If you accidentally place a sell order at lower than the highest buy price, you’ve lost your stuff to the buyers. BE CAREFUL to review your entries before you press the final button.

14. If you goof an order, and no one has bought or sold to it as yet you have a 5 minute wait before you can adjust it.

15. If you goof a sell order but it doesn’t get immediately scooped by the highest buy order you can instantly minimize your losses by buying it yourself. Consider the loss of the tax and the brokers fee tuition in the school of commerce and a friendly PVE / PVP reminder to CHECK your orders before you finalize them.

16. If you goof on a buy order and end up benefitting sellers with a serious amount of 'bonus' isk at great cost to your own wallet it MAY be worth looking up who benefitted in your wallet and writing a polite evemail that admits your mistake and ask for them to send some isk so you can recover some of your loss. Most pilots will ignore you. Some will insult you. Some will give you a harsh sounding “…well that’s the price of learning in EVE lecture…” But despite the dog-eat-dog predatory nature of this game and the way it encourages some people to live out sociopathic fantasies, there is an astonishing level of tough but fair good sportsmanship, comerarderie and affection for people who will own their mistakes and keep learning. Some pilots WILL help you recover faster from your error by topping up their price paid to something near market value. Sometimes you will even make cyber buddies or begin to meet potential virtual business partners in this way. Just don’t beg, or whine, or spam and own your error. Consider it a pvp loss and tuition in the dog-eat-dog world of marketing. (Incidentally even in pvp ship losses there are some pilots who are perfectly happy to enter into dialog with their victims about the victim learning pvp…some are rude, some will ignore you, but again there is comeraderie and tough but fair good sportsmanship out there, your buddies WILL kill you if they get a chance but you can all go to the pub afterwards and have a good laugh…and learn….with many of them most days.)

What does such a buy order goof look like? Well imagine something is selling for 70 isk and you want to buy 1,000 items. But you type in 7000 isk by mistake. The system will grab the first 1000, lowest value sell orders at 7000 isk or less BUT it will pay 7000 for each item no matter how much the seller was asking in the order. So, shazam, you meant to spend 70,000 isk to get something at market value but you end up paying 7,000,000 isk. Ouch. It's like a pvp ship loss. Now imagine you goof both the isk amount and the number of items to 10,000 items at 7,000 isk. 70,000,000 isk. That's like loosing a battle cruiser.....ouch.

17. Don’t just accept the default values the computer enters for your buy and sell orders. If you do, you will end up placing sell orders at pittance higher than the highest buy order and a pirate like me is just going to come along and scoop it up to save brokerage on placing a buy order. You will be out tax AND brokerage and would have made more money just selling it to the highest buy order (because then you would not have paid brokerage), effectively wasting your market slot and loosing you money at the same time.

18. I’ve found that station trading named material components (Sleeper, Takhmahl, Talocan, Yan Jung etc.) does quite well in Jita with its massive number of customers and its turn over. However, they don’t sell very quickly in other hubs nor is it that easy to source them at low prices in other hubs. Jita is all about the churn. (and the possibility of getting killed while docking or undocking with out insta bookmarks….or getting eaten in Uedama on your way back or forth to market.)
Last edited by Etienne Darmond on 2022.11.04 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notes on Trading part 1. Submitted by Etienne Darmond, Freshman.

Post by Etienne Darmond »

Jindo Lee wrote: 2022.10.09 05:14 Great stuff!
Thanks Jindo, awesome spaceman!
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