Bhaalgorn

For discussion of ship fittings
Post Reply
User avatar
Drebin 679
Coordinator
Posts: 170
Joined: 2017.09.15 00:09
Title: Freshman

Bhaalgorn

Post by Drebin 679 »

o/

So doing a short-time-distance necro on this thread by Gergoran Moussou. There surprisingly hasn't been a thread on the Bhaalgorn, so let's fix that.

There are a couple of armor tanked neuting-focused fits on the wiki already, so to link those:

Capacitor Warfare
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Capacitor Warfare]
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Dark Blood Heavy Capacitor Booster II
Ship Scanner II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Egress Port Maximizer I

Ogre II x3

Navy Cap Booster 800 x5
Capacitor Warfare 1
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Capacitor Warfare 1]
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Like many of the uni's battleship fits, these use a bevy of pre-tiericide modules, owing to being made back in Odyssey (June 2013) and Rubicon (April 2014). While these archetypes are still intact in their function, there are some other fits of note as well. Gergoran listed a few use cases. So going through those:
Gergoran Moussou wrote:Suggestions for Bhaalgorn fits to add:
1. Updated wormhole armor fit (the two fits on the wiki look like WHC Heavy Armor).
2. Wormhole shield fit (despite being generally an armor ship, pulsar systems provide enough of a neut bonus that they are devastatingly effective, without needing to train Minmatar skill beyond I to make full use in this context).
3. Null fleet fit. A lot of groups use Bhaalgorns because they aren't that much more expensive than T1 and provide excellent utility while still being able to put out eight turrets' worth of damage.
1. While neither of the wiki fits are explicitly for wormholes as far as I can tell, I asked the Uni's WHC Director, Conci Furiram about it, and he gave me a fit to post here:

Wormhole Passive Heavy Armor
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Wormhole Passive Heavy Armor]
1600mm Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized EM Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corpum B-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Corpum B-Type Energized Thermal Membrane
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Sensor Booster II
500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Ship Scanner II
Sensor Booster II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Hornet II x5
Imperial Navy Curator x4
Acolyte II x5

Targeting Range Script x2
Scan Resolution Script x2
ECCM Script x2
Nanite Repair Paste x50
Similar in concept to the "Capacitor Warfare 1" fit, but with a fair bit more bling for tankiness, and extra nos range, with less emphasis on webs in favor of some extra ECCM resistance. Seven nosferatus and zero neutralizers means while it doesn't neut as strongly as a neut fit would, it has plenty of capacitor to keep those mids going even if there is some counter neut pressure.

2. As noted by Gergoran, pulsar wormholes offer very strong bonuses to neutralizer amounts. What's probably the main reason that the Bhaal is specially fitted for these holes though is that they have a hefty penalty to armor resistances, but also a strong bonus to shield HP. For example, the wormhole heavy armor fit linked above with max skills has nearly 190k EHP against Omni damage in regular space (143k EHP in main tank), but only 160k EHP in a C6 Pulsar (95k EHP in main tank). For that reason, some groups opt to run shield tank Bhaalgorns specifically for these types of wormholes, taking advantage of the Bhaal's five mid slots to field a formidable tank. Now, I didn't look too far deep into the depths of zKill, but I found an affordable fit that looks like a decent enough starting point:

Pulsar Wormhole Shield Neut/Nos
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Pulsar Wormhole Shield Neut/Nos]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II

500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II

Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu
Heavy Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu
Heavy Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu
Heavy Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Acolyte II x5
Ogre II x4
While this fit currently goes for half of what the heavy armor fit linked above does, in a C6 Pulsar it can boast 206k EHP against omni damage, much more than a regular armor bhaal could without even more bling (or active hardeners). Mids for tank obviously means no sensor boosters and no webs, so signal amplifiers are used to shore up sensor strength, and power diagnostic systems are used to fill out the lows while also giving some extra tank and capacitor.

3. Looking through zKill, it looks like both Triumvirate and The Imperium (two mails to show it's not just Goonswarm) do have Bhaalgorn doctrines that have seen life and death. Both utilize beams with an active hardener, double plate tank, sentry drones, and a medium cap booster for the Tri and GSF fits. They differ in the utility highs and mids though. Tri fits had neuts and webs, while Imperium fits had nos and tracking computers/tracking disruptors. The Tactical Narcotics Team Bhaals also had a cap battery in place of the cap booster. I'll post a Tri and GSF fit with their group names attached for comparison and hopeful coalescence into a single mainline fleet fit.

Triumvirate Fleet Beam Bhaal
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Triumvirate Fleet Beam Bhaal]
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

500MN Microwarpdrive II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Heavy Capacitor Booster II,Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script

Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
Large YF-12a Smartbomb
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Imperial Navy Standard L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Warden II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x3
Warrior II x2
Imperium Fleet Beam Bhaal
Spoiler
[Bhaalgorn, Imperium Fleet Beam Bhaal]
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener
Dark Blood Armor Kinetic Hardener
Dark Blood Armor Thermal Hardener
Heat Sink II

500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I,Navy Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II,Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II,Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II,Tracking Speed Script

Heavy Energy Nosferatu II
Heavy Energy Nosferatu II
Large 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II,Aurora L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Acolyte II x2
Bouncer II x4

--------

On top of these fits, I would think that the existing fits are fine (if a bit web heavy), and one or both could be brought up to date with current modules.

Look forward to hearing what people think! And personally speaking, as long as people are caring about these fits, caring about the wiki as a community resource, I'm happy.
Incursion Coordinator, Wiki Curator
Image Image Image
User avatar
Gergoran Moussou
Member
Member
Posts: 327
Joined: 2019.04.09 05:16

Re: Bhaalgorn

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Drebin 679 wrote:(two mails to show it's not just Goonswarm)
Smaller alliances in big coalitions often fly in larger alliances' fleets in the same doctrine ships (Pandemic Legion, for example, has been flying mostly in joint fleets with Northern Coalition recently, another example would be the Legacy coalition's "Voltron" fleets typically consisting of every alliance other than TEST, which is generally large enough to form its own fleet alongside Voltron; an NCPL fleet fought a Voltron fleet last night in Providence along with several other fleets on each side). I haven't been in the Imperium, but I'd expect TNT (also LAWN and The Bastion) to have this sort of relationship with Goonswarm Federation due to the alliances' sizes and the fact that while I haven't really seen any TNT fleets around, most CONDI fleets that I've encountered have had at least a one or two pilots from the smaller Delve alliances. I think INIT. flies Bhaalgorns in their Abbadon doctrine, but T1 battleship fleets aren't that common in the current meta (largely due to how strong shield HACs are). The fit for Pandemic Horde isn't that different from Delve Imperium's fit (basically just switch out a tracking computer for a faction web), but again, we don't call the relevant doctrine very often.

Bhaalgorns differ from other faction battleships in that they're not really mainline doctrine ships of their own but they're pretty versatile and can fit into a lot of different compositions (along with being really cheap by faction battleship standards because their blueprints come from the most populated region of New Eden).

We've covered the wormhole heavy armor meta (I believe WHC's variant of this is Drekavac/Sacrilege mainline with Bhaalgorn support but I left the corp shortly before the doctrine got updated, the really big wormhole corps like Hard Knocks typically use Leshaks as the mainline ship), shield equivalents (WHC used to have a heavy shield doctrine which included this), and battleship fleets. It's clearly the most versatile battleship in the game.

The core weakness of the ship keeping it from more widespread use is that in addition to the general drawbacks of battleships, in a meta dominated by long range fleets such as shield HACs, Huginns and Lokis can web farther and the neuts don't go far enough to hit the logi of a shield HAC fleet. There are plenty of other uses that a Bhaalgorn can be fit for because it has a substantial damage potential while also having plenty of utility and flexibility. I've even seen it used as a heavy tackler (something akin to a really big, slow RamJag, I guess).

Drebin can probably say more than I can about Incursion fits for Bhaalgorns, but I find it interesting that while WarptoMe has it listed as one of the acceptable starter ships alongside normal shield battleships, TDF doesn't list it as one of the starter ships for their armor fleet.
Former E-Uni FC (LSC/WHC).

Image
User avatar
Gergoran Moussou
Member
Member
Posts: 327
Joined: 2019.04.09 05:16

Re: Bhaalgorn

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Drebin 679 wrote:While this fit currently goes for half of what the heavy armor fit linked above does, in a C6 Pulsar it can boast 206k EHP against omni damage, much more than a regular armor bhaal could without even more bling (or active hardeners). Mids for tank obviously means no sensor boosters and no webs, so signal amplifiers are used to shore up sensor strength, and power diagnostic systems are used to fill out the lows while also giving some extra tank and capacitor.
Something that I forgot in my previous response.

I would be more likely to base it off of a C5 pulsar's bonus.

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Wormhole_space#Pulsar

86% bonus to shield HP rather than 100%. Still substantial. The reason being that there isn't really much fighting that goes on in C6 space. There is only one corp that I know of which actually lives in a C6 (a Wolf-Rayet, specifically, so their home system would probably be the least suitable place to use this fit), with most of the others being systems where people set up alts to run the sites and don't really keep much more wealth in there than what they need to run the sites and keep their citadels running. Furthermore, the people most likely to use them are in powerful wormhole corporations which keep a close eye on any system with a C6 static since they have a vested interest in making sure that people do not spend much time rolling into C6 space and looking for dreadnought kills. C5 systems and systems with C5 statics have traditionally been the main homes of people who engage in J-Space PVP (with the mass limit for connections between C5 systems being large enough that a battleship fleet is a reasonable possibility rather than maybe a Bhaalgorn or two supporting a fleet of smaller ships like the C5 static in a C2 or C4).
Former E-Uni FC (LSC/WHC).

Image
Post Reply