Relic camper killer

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niahoo

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Post 2019.08.26 09:06

Relic camper killer

Hello,

So yersterday I lost my covert ops against two Astero who were camping in a relic site in lowsec. I had this idea then :

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[Talwar, Talwar OS]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System I

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Faint Scoped Warp Disruptor
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Nova Rocket

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Nova Rocket x315


This fitting requires a bait in the relic site that could aquire a point while the Talwar awaits outside of dscan range.
The campers use scramblers, that is why I chose an oversized AB instead of a MWD, just to be able to escape if things go wrong. Also they have only drones for DPS so orbiting with the AB could be enough to kite the drones.

Could this work ?

Also, would it be wise to set 3 rockets launchers (over 7) to do heat or EM damage ?
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White 0rchid

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Post 2019.08.26 09:14

Re: Relic camper killer

Why not just use another astero or a rocket fit bomber?

Edit: Misread slightly, you want to kill the people that camp the sites? Asteros can actually do quite decent damage so you need to be able to withstand that. Not sure what I'd use but the more important question is what you would use as bait, as pretty much anything can be the backup dps assuming it's fast enough.
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niahoo

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Post 2019.08.26 09:26

Re: Relic camper killer

you want to kill the people that camp the sites?


Exactly.

They have scramblers and Hobgoblins so my plan was to orbit with a fast AB at point range and tank with the signature. I am not sure that anybody would be available to come with me, so this is more a solo setup.
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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2019.08.26 14:13

Re: Relic camper killer

You can't really sig tank light drones at all. That talwar would die really fast.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.08.26 15:49

Re: Relic camper killer

They're relic camping in two Asteros, when one Astero that's fit for PvP has a 90%+ chance of beating whatever it decloaks on. So they're not going to engage anything they think can fight back.

I recommend dual-boxing a Stratios and a bait ship. The bait ship can be any relic-running fit that can hold an Astero long enough for your Strat to decloak and lock.

A 10mn Talwar doesn't even outrun MWD Asteros, so your escape mechanism doesn't work. Covert ops and being on site is pretty essential for this to work, and you need to be able to tank two Asteros long enough to kill one, then tank the other if it sticks around to fight. Your choices are therefore a force recon, a Stratios, or a covert T3, and the Stratios is overall probably best.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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niahoo

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Post 2019.08.26 17:13

Re: Relic camper killer

You can't really sig tank light drones at all. That talwar would die really fast.


Well speed tanking in this case. Hobgoblins orbit at 660 m/s. Can they shoot while they use their MWD ?

Stratios sounds good but to expensive for me at the moment. I checked their fit and the asteros seem to use ABs so that was my escape strategy.

Anyway, its seems that I don't stand a chance infortunately.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.08.27 15:54

Re: Relic camper killer

All drones can shoot while they use their MWD, yes.

If you can't afford a larger cloaky ship, perhaps you could bring some friends for your bait op? A few rocket bombers will beat two Asteros easily, and nullsec blackout conditions mean that your friends won't appear in local if you set everything up correctly. (If you have a blops bridge, you can even covert cyno them into system, to get them in past any gate picketing - I'm not sure how risk averse your targets are.)
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Gergoran Moussou

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Post 2019.08.27 20:41

Re: Relic camper killer

Raido, would the Heron be the best bait ship because you can give it a pretty hefty buffer with its many mid slots?
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.08.27 22:35

Re: Relic camper killer

It would not, because you need two of those mids for scramblers and need one for the relic analyzer to pretend that you're legit. (I suspect they won't engage without seeing a relic analyzer going, given the already-established risk aversion.) So you won't really have a spare mid for tank.

I would use a Helios, since its slot layout gives 3 lows for tank and 5 mids for prop, relic analyzer, 2x scram, web. Also, it has t2 resists so you can squeeze a little more tank out of those 3 lows. Finally, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition the bait Helios.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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DeanSherman

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Post 2019.08.28 00:30

Re: Relic camper killer

God, what's up with this bait nonsense?

Bring pvp Astero, 1v2 them, lose the astero, get experience, rinse and repeat until you win. And win does not necceserely means that you kill 2 asteros.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Astero, Astero PvP]

Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II
Relic Analyzer I
Warp Scrambler II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Core Probe Launcher II

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Acolyte II x5
Caldari Navy Hornet x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


Standard Exile Booster
Agency 'Hardshell' TB3 Dose I


Navy Cap Booster 400 x15
Nanite Repair Paste x100


Bring Stratios to kill astero? Upshipping and baiting is road to nowhere, you will not learn anything, you will not improve. It is easy to upship or gank, it is hard to get meaningful fights. Funny how someone can call asteros risk averse and suggest to upship at the same time. Take the risks, take the fights and have fun.

When you undock ship, it is lost. It is resource to have fun. If you can not afford the loss, just don't undock. How much fun you can make from that loss? That is the question.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.08.28 12:02

Re: Relic camper killer

Yes, obviously the way to learning more about the game is to fight 1v2 at brawl range after you've already given a midslot away, with a bad fit (SAAR + T2 rep is strictly superior to double T2 rep, and neuts are standard on a PvP Astero), and then to lecture people who try to give advice for how to actually win a fight. You do know that ganking Asteros don't fit relic analyzers in that fourth mid, right?

Finding ways to punish campers while you risk a bait ship leads to perfectly good learning outcomes, as is pretty obvious from the number of people asking for advice about how to fit and use a good bait ship. It also leads to multiple layers of fun, since there's a pretty good chance that the individual(s) using two best-in-class cloaky ganking ships, who can always decide whether or not to engage, will exhibit this kind of self-righteousness in local chat after they take the bait.

Estimating winning chances and planning an effective response is also a relevant player skill, by the way.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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White 0rchid

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Post 2019.08.28 15:40

Re: Relic camper killer

DeanSherman wrote:God, what's up with this bait nonsense?

Bring pvp Astero, 1v2 them, lose the astero, get experience, rinse and repeat until you win. And win does not necceserely means that you kill 2 asteros.

When you undock ship, it is lost. It is resource to have fun. If you can not afford the loss, just don't undock. How much fun you can make from that loss? That is the question.


My fun is in winning, usually. That's not to say that when I die, I haven't had fun, but dying for no reason isn't exactly ideal. Please don't give people bad advice.
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Anidien Dallacort

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Post 2019.08.29 03:05

Re: Relic camper killer

I’m a noob and there’s probably going to be a hundred things wrong with the statements below, but one great way to learn is to speak up and be told why I’m wrong, soooo...


I agree that the two challenges here would to get the camper to unclocak, and the bait ship surviving long enough for the camper-camper to arrive and at least lock a target (to prevent re-cloak).

If you are up against 2, I think you would only need to hold one in place (point one, not both) - the other could decide to stay and fight without being pointed, or run. The point here, is to make them think twice about dropping cloak when you might not have the trap laid. Should only take one loss to make that point.

The attack ship would have to get in place fast, on site already would be great. At the same time, the Astero has a 15 second recloak delay, right? If you aren’t worried about the long term health of the bait... that buys time.

But my input is on the bait - I agree you will need to spring their trap by starting a scan cycle - risk assessment aside, they will probably be waiting for that, since they will have a decloak targeting delay which gives their prey a bit of time to react (in what is typically a frigate), and playing the virus game creates a bit of a distraction.

You’d have to give up a mid for one analyzer, 2 in order to run this in EITHER data or relic sites.

Additional equipment if you need to scan down the locations in the first place.

With those mid slots devoted to springing the trap - would an armor tanked Magnate (4 low slots) give the longest bait survivability?
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.08.29 15:11

Re: Relic camper killer

Part of the reason why the earlier post was so hilariously unhelpful is that you actually do need to think about what risks your targets are accepting of, and what risks they're averse to. People looking for standup fights in lowsec are different from opportunistic hunters, and either of these are different from people who are sitting on a relic site potentially for hours, using two Asteros to gank site runners when a single PvP-fit Astero is a hard counter to any exploration frigate, T1, T2, or even another Astero, provided that the target has a relic analyzer fitted. The OP described a target that is displaying the most extreme level of risk aversion possible in the subcap ganking meta.

After checking OP's zkill, btw, I also happen to know that the Asteros in question are dualboxed - Alice is pretty well known in the lowsec environment. And since we're in lowsec, the counter-gank is even harder (and pretty much requires a Stratios and/or clean bait), because Alice is going to be watching local for additional spikes from the target's corp. As the kids these days say, oof.

Anidien Dallacort wrote:I’m a noob and there’s probably going to be a hundred things wrong with the statements below, but one great way to learn is to speak up and be told why I’m wrong, soooo...


There are some things you're missing, but you're doing a really good job of thinking through the problem. I like it!

Anidien Dallacort wrote:I agree that the two challenges here would to get the camper to unclocak, and the bait ship surviving long enough for the camper-camper to arrive and at least lock a target (to prevent re-cloak).

If you are up against 2, I think you would only need to hold one in place (point one, not both) - the other could decide to stay and fight without being pointed, or run. The point here, is to make them think twice about dropping cloak when you might not have the trap laid. Should only take one loss to make that point.


It depends on your objective. If I were going to punish some relic campers, I would do it with the intent of just demolishing them because it's funny when you get to do that. One lossmail and one escaped ship is going to feel like they did something right, which is fine if you want them to come back, but not a great deterrent. Moreover, you really have one chance on this, because after that your bait is going to be set red and they will either have cyno support or will otherwise only engage when they're super sure of success.

Anidien Dallacort wrote:The attack ship would have to get in place fast, on site already would be great. At the same time, the Astero has a 15 second recloak delay, right? If you aren’t worried about the long term health of the bait... that buys time.

But my input is on the bait - I agree you will need to spring their trap by starting a scan cycle - risk assessment aside, they will probably be waiting for that, since they will have a decloak targeting delay which gives their prey a bit of time to react (in what is typically a frigate), and playing the virus game creates a bit of a distraction.


So here's how this is going to go. The Asteros (or at any rate, one of them) will bump you as they decloak, to prevent you from warping away and therefore guarantee they can lock you after the decloak timer. Because of this, you are guaranteed to be in scram range of one of them, and hopefully in range of both. You should approach the one that is further away and scram both targets, using your AB to try to stay in scram range of both.

As soon as you have scram on both targets, decloak your Stratios or other good counter-ganking cruiser, lock up both, and neut one with your Stratios while putting secondary tackle on the other. Use your bait to approach the neuted Astero and lock that one down. Blow them up, and prepare for salt in local. (Realistically, Alice probably won't give much salt, though. They're pretty okay, as this sort of ganker goes.)

Anidien Dallacort wrote:You’d have to give up a mid for one analyzer, 2 in order to run this in EITHER data or relic sites.

Additional equipment if you need to scan down the locations in the first place.

With those mid slots devoted to springing the trap - would an armor tanked Magnate (4 low slots) give the longest bait survivability?


You should already be using a mobile depot when exploring, so that you can refit your analyzer for the correct site, drop scan upgrade modules for tank or ECM bursts, etc. So we'll assume one analyzer and no scan upgrades for the actual fit.

I think you'll be more successful using a T2 frigate with 3 lows rather than the T1 frigate with 4 lows, because the 3 lows give more tank after you count the improved resists on the T2 hull. You can also use a heavily tanked Astero if you wish - buffer with a remote rep module on your second ship is probably best, IMO.

If you're going as cheap as possible, note that the 3 mids on the Magnate equate to one scram, analyzer, and prop mod, which means you can only count on catching one of the two. You can't go no-prop because the AB Asteros will simply disengage.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

Join Fweddit - Be a Space Chikun!
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niahoo

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Post 2019.08.29 16:04

Re: Relic camper killer

Wow so many messages since I've been there !
Thank you all.

Raido Kudonen

All drones can shoot while they use their MWD, yes.

That is unfortunate. But anyway I've tried to fly with the 10AB and it is very very slow to accelerate. The lack of punch is way worse than with 100AB cruisers. So i'll forget about that.

Unfortunately this is lowsec so the local will be visible, but yes a small gang could be fun of course. I'm not sure this will be possible from HSC though.
I have a bomber will torps skills, but I've just trained rockets V. A rocket bomber is preferable for asteros because of their small signature ? Does it really change much in regard to the additional damage of the torps ? Well I checked the math, so no torps :)

Finally, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition the bait Helios.


Could you explain this phrase to a french dude ? BTW it was a Helios I lost to those Asteros. They like Helioses :)

After checking OP's zkill, btw, I also happen to know that the Asteros in question are dualboxed


You know that only because you know Alice's name or ther are other clues on zkill ?


DeanSherman

They have a very tanky ship, I've checked their fit. I'm not sure this astero would have enough DPS agains two of its clones.

When you undock ship, it is lost. It is resource to have fun. If you can not afford the loss, just don't undock. How much fun you can make from that loss? That is the question.


That is exactly how I think but an Astero is expensive for me :) That is why I tried to come up with a cheap glass canon. Don't even think of a Stratios.

A destroyer seemed a good idea. The 10AB was a bad idea, beeing able to escape is a waste of resources, and as you say I should consider the ship lost. Maybe an arty Thrasher I could keep out of scram/neut range.


Anidien Dallacort

If the ganking ship is long to arrive, the bait is in really trouble so yes the more tank the better. This is lowsec to relic/data swaping can be done in a statio quickly.

Oh and killing just one of them and dying to the other would already satifsfying actually, if I go alone with a destroyer.



Thanks again for all your messages, this is good fuel to think about !
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