Draugur

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Drebin 679

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Post 2019.05.28 16:22

Draugur

I'm pretty sure that nobody has this ship on TQ yet, but I'd figure it'd be best to get a thread going to see potential fits for the Triglavian Command Destroyer.

No fitting expert, but to get things going, I threw together a Pontifex-like MWD/MJFG/Plate fit.


MWD Plate fit
SPOILER WARNING!
[Draugur, MWD Plate fit]
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Kinetic Plating II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Micro Jump Field Generator
Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler

Light Compact Entropic Disintegrator
Skirmish Command Burst II
Skirmish Command Burst II

Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Command Processor I



Warrior II x4

Rapid Deployment Charge x300
Nanite Repair Paste x24
Meson Exotic Plasma S x1500
Interdiction Maneuvers Charge x300
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.05.30 17:30

Re: Draugur

The nano is out of place on a 400mm plate fit. You should be fitting max tank, like Pontifexes and fleet Magi, not kitey, like skirmish Magi.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Draugur, heavy snatch]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centii C-Type EM Plating
Centii A-Type Kinetic Plating

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Micro Jump Field Generator
Faint Epsilon Scoped Warp Scrambler

Veles Light Entropic Disintegrator, Occult S
Coreli A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Skirmish Command Burst II, Rapid Deployment Charge

Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II


Presumably it would have Pontifexes for armor links, Kikimoras for extra dps, Deacons for reps. I guess the niche would be groups where command destroyers that don't do 500 dps cut into a small gang's numbers too much.

There's probably a somewhat acceptable nano fit, but the slot layout is surprisingly bad for it. Self-rep pretty much requires a cap booster, and after you have a prop mod and MJFG that's all 3 of your mids. A shield buffer would sort of work, but the Triglavian T2 resist profile is really bad for shields (the only one worse, unsurprisingly, is Amarr). And the damage projection on the Draugur is awful, with Meson only getting to heated point range.

It kind of feels like CCP really want the T2 triglavian ships to be brawlers. And I'm not at all sure that that makes them attractive at their likely price point and engagement profile.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Kyle Hargrove

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Post 2019.06.01 08:27

Re: Draugur

I agree with Raido on the fitting choices. I would just do some minor tweaks

  Code:
[Draugur, Brawl]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpii C-Type EM Plating
Corelum B-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Micro Jump Field Generator
Warp Scrambler II

Veles Light Entropic Disintegrator
Coreli A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Skirmish Command Burst II

Small Anti-Explosive Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II


This loses 500 EHP of buffer but gains ~15% better reps.

I'm not 100% sure about what the role of this ship is supposed to be. For sure it's armour tank, and it seems brawly. However, in general I prefer to bring tank links before support (Skirmish/Info), and the Draugur doesn't have armour links...

My take would be that, in brawly comps, you only bring these after you brought enough Pontifexes/Maguses for the tank links, and then make Draugurs fill Skirmish/Info. Ideally, this would remove some worries about whether to pick a Pontifex or a Magus, since the Draugur has bonuses for both support links.

The problem IMO is, though, that you hardly field so many CDs barring nullblobs. In other words, I guess the question is where you'd give priority to support links over tank links. I'm really not sure, because it's not my playstyle, but maybe an option is to field these in small kiting comps, possibly using the highslots only for links and logi? Not sure, really. Will try to throw something together and then post here for feedback.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.06.01 13:56

Re: Draugur

Links fit for the Pontifex/Magus usually have two links and a small command processor, so the niche that these have in a brawly snatch-type gang is their much heavier DPS than other command destroyers.

In smaller groups (like ORGNC, where a very substantial subcap roam is somewhere between 12 and 20) one of the problems we've experienced with the command destroyer-heavy comp is that command destroyer numbers trade off with your gang's DPS. A Magus with its DPS drones out (2x Valks, 3x Hobs) and EMP in its autocannons does about 240 DPS, with the huge majority of that DPS subject to being left on field when you boosh away or have to warp off. A Pontifex can't pull that much off, and of course the autocannon fits project to about 5km at best with those ACs.

We've used three main DPS platforms with booshing command destroyers for roams: "tri-AF" mixed armor assault frigates with mostly Retributions, Kikimoras, and mixed Confessors/Kikimoras. With the Kikimora's utility neut dropped due to nerfed grid and its drone bay empty, the Kikimora is still clearly at the top of the DPS race with a damage ramp of 275-687 using Occult at a 15km optimal. The Confessor hits to scram range at 379 DPS with Conflag, and even the Retribution (which is much more projection focused) does 272 DPS at brawl range with Gleam.

The bottom line on the DPS numbers: the least damage focused version of our snatch comp, the one using AFs, had more reliable DPS on the AFs, while the other two versions have much more DPS on the dedicated damage platforms, whether Confessors, Hecates, or Kikimoras.

The key to using snatch comps (especially in small numbers) against blobby or more-blobby-than-you numbers is the Burst Jammer, which lets you boosh people out of hostile gangs even when they're protected by HICs and other anti-boosh specialists. You also need a certain number of command destroyers just to have full links on your group. So just to have enough MJFGs in your comp, you probably need 3 command destroyers; to make sure you have a few burst jammers available and everyone has links, you need about 5. Without the Draugur in play, that's approximately 2 Magi (2x skirmish, 1x skirmish w/ burst jammer) and 3 Pontifexes (2x armor, 2x info, 1x info 1x armor, all with burst jammers) if you get the perfect comp. With 3 deacons and a ceptor pilot for pings, that means a small group can field somewhere between 3 and 11 dedicated DPS ships. At the lower end, the 3 Confessors/Hecates (let alone Kikimoras) do more damage than all 5 command destroyers. At the upper end, every additional command destroyer one adds for extra snatching is still a substantial loss of DPS for the gang.

So I think a brawl-focused application of the Draugur is almost tailored to a group like mine, where we like to use command destroyer-heavy comps but run low on DPS in our typical fleet size. One can pretty easily see 500 DPS Draugur fits (btw, the plural of draugur is draugar for the language nerds out there) covering the skirmish links and making space for a couple extra MJFGs where one would otherwise feel bad at losing a Confessor's DPS. If we managed to form 20 dudes, we might even add a couple extra Deacons.

The tl;dr is basically that the place you see "non-nullblob" use of mass CDs is basically my corp/alliance, these are pretty amazing for the super brawly low-numbers snatching and command destroyer-heavy roaming we do. The only problem is I feel like they're gonna cost about 400m apiece once the price stabilizes, and that seems rather high for the brawly application.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Kyle Hargrove

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Post 2019.06.01 18:20

Re: Draugur

Good analysis, and one to which I agree.

Bringing a CD which has stupid amount of DPS for brawls was another of the possibilities I had in mind, and I thought it was the one that you were also thinking... I didn't type it out, but very happy to see that you took the time.

Thanks for the contribution :)

Fweddit FTW! Let me know if you plan one such roam for EUTZ. Would love to join.
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