Machariel

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Eridani Sparkles

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Post 2018.06.24 16:48

Machariel

ok i cant fit it
Last edited by Eridani Sparkles on 2018.06.25 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2018.06.24 20:36

Re: Machariel

I have doubts for that PvE fit. At least for missions.

T2 AC ammo sucks. Due to range penalty the T1 ammo is better than hail unless you are less than 20 km from the target and due to the tracking penalty T1 is again better if the target is closer than 10 km (tracking problems even further if the target is not BS).

Without the MJD cycle time bonus I doubt MJD only machariel would work too well. you are basically going to wait 2 minutes to MJD on gate or slowboat there 200 m/s every time when the acceleration gate is not on the warpin.

Propmodless (except MJD which won't help here) ship with effective range of 20 km will be kited by many mission rats. It will also take ages before you are in range.

Cap stability is overrated. Pulse the booster.

T1 cap boosters work just fine in PvE so cap booster costs are not too bad.

Autocannons need tracking enhancers. Falloff bonus = damage bonus.

The cap boosted fit on wiki seems fine to me. Even cheap variant like this should work as long as you are careful.

DPS: 778 + drones
Range: 30 km (optimal + 0.5 falloff)
Tank: 582 EHP/s sustained against Serp (I think the cap lasts over booster reload)

SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, mission cheap]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Fourier Compact Tracking Enhancer
Fourier Compact Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermal Dissipation Field II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Optical Compact Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
100MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
[empty high slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Acolyte II x5
Hornet II x5
Warrior II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


The usual notes for mission fits:
Swap hardeners to incoming damage
Swap ammo to enemy weakness
Use light drones to take out frigates and destroyers
Pulse shield booster only when needed

Your fit VS this fit (drones not included) https://i.imgur.com/EGp9Hey.png
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Eridani Sparkles

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Post 2018.06.24 21:01

Re: Machariel

looked over what you said and yes you have some valid points about resistance and only needing to pulse your reps, most WH fits like stability so I built it able to handle more than a mission for safety. I have taken what you posted and reworked it some to not use a cap injector so you don't wast your money on cap charges.
  Code:

[Machariel, mission cheap]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Damage Control II

Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Optical Compact Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
100MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, EMP L
[Empty High slot]

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I


Acolyte II x5
Hornet II x5
Warrior II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.06.25 03:59

Re: Machariel

T1 cap boosters work just fine in PvE so cap booster costs are not too bad.

I never run L4 in Machariel or in this fit, though I do know that it should be able to tank around 400 incoming DPS for 3-5 minutesm.
Problem with cap boosters are that they take cargo, but I assume somebody who posted the original fit had a good reason for that, so I'd Hirmuolio's fit. Though, why meta modules? I've upgraded them up to T2:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, L4 Missions - Autocannons]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith B-Type Explosive Deflection Field
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
[Empty High slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Valkyrie II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5
Warrior II x5


Fusion L x3000
Republic Fleet EMP L x3000
Republic Fleet Fusion L x3000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L x3000
Navy Cap Booster 800 x20


There is currently posted a fit for Blitzing missions, as it is broken (uses extra low slow and has empty mid one) I've adjusted it.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, Ultimate L4 Blitzer - T2 Autocannons]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
[Empty High slot]

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Republic Fleet EMP L x5000
Republic Fleet Fusion L x2000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L x2000
Optimal Range Script x2
Tracking Speed Script x2
Navy Cap Booster 800 x20


Regarding PvP fit...
Why Large Dynamic Fuel Valve? Did you come up with fit on your own or found commonly used one? Could you please justify why it is good?
I have few fits, but they all are from old meta...
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Eridani Sparkles

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Post 2018.06.25 04:22

Re: Machariel

The reason I used a DFV is to improve the cap time running the prop mod from 4 - 5 min so it can burn longer it is kinda an open rig slot I just chose that rig to make the MWD time better. I did make the fit myself it's a pretty standard 1400mm arty fit. there isn't much variation in arty mach besides how blinged they can be. The reason that this PvP fit is good because of its high alpha potential, and high range of up to 100km, these two stats combined give it great potential in large numbers to just alpha battleships off the grid
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White 0rchid

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Post 2018.06.25 09:56

Re: Machariel

That PvP fit is horrendous please do not use or promote it. Just because armour machs are now bad doesn't mean shield ones suddenly became good. You will end up with no tank and no mobility in that fit.

Also never fit T2 arty.
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O'b Haru Sen

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Post 2018.06.25 13:24

Re: Machariel

Also mission running ships should avoid using resist rigs because they can not be adapted to NPC damage type.
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Eridani Sparkles

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Post 2018.06.25 13:52

Re: Machariel

no comment
Last edited by Eridani Sparkles on 2018.06.25 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.06.25 15:45

Re: Machariel

Eridani Sparkles wrote:
White 0rchid wrote:That PvP fit is horrendous please do not use or promote it. Just because armour machs are now bad doesn't mean shield ones suddenly became good. You will end up with no tank and no mobility in that fit.

Also never fit T2 arty.


While I fundamentally disagree with you I did give it a look over and modified the fit for Meta arty, and more range and lock distance, removing some of the mods for cap stability and PG, While its numbers don't look the best if you run it in fleet with a 5 -1 with skimi's you will do fine. And if you where thinking of using it in null it probably won't work, it's targeted to lowsec. Secondly it dose have decent mobility with its prop mod at 1.4k /s most Bs won't keep up.


You haven't amassed the experience required to theorycraft well, which is evident from the original fit you posted, and you definitely haven't done the research to determine how Machariels are actually fit in PvP. This is a problem, but not a serious one - the Uni exists so people can learn more about the game. But disregarding the advice of people who know more about the PvP meta prevents you from learning and makes you look foolish.

(You also seem to think that Scimitars cap chain and can dump their cap transmitter onto the cap-hungry DPS ships, which is incorrect on multiple levels.)

Now, let's talk about how Machariels actually work.

Lowsec small-gang applications:

Machariels in small gang applications almost always use autocannons, because you can still use ACs from 30-35km and be pretty safe there with your snake pod and Bifrost links. They also generally use active shield reps instead of buffer, because you're not using them in a fleet and you'll rarely see even one Scimitar in these gangs. Exodus uses small gang Machs a fair bit, although their most recent loss happened before Machs lost a lowslot and picked up a mid. Still, if you were going to make a moderately blingy small gang Machariel, you could do a lot worse than this:

SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, lowsec small gang]

Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Warp Disruptor
Heavy Stasis Grappler II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II


Infiltrator II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Acolyte II x5
Warrior II x5


Fleet Machariels, lowsec/nullsec

Fleet Machariels got nerfed to the point of not really being good anymore when the Machariel lost a lowslot, picked up a mid, and got its speed, falloff, and sig made a bit worse. This is because the standard fit for arty battleships takes advantage of the ludicrously high alpha from artillery to fit max tank in the lowslots, and losing a lowslot cost the Machariel something like 30k ehp before links. Since faction battleships already don't trade well against T1 battleships if both sides can volley off each other's ships, trading tank for utility was very bad for fleet Machariels. (The other two roles that made them uniquely good a couple years ago, the ability to fit capless guns and tank in the citadel void bomb era and their spot in the AHAC T3 > T1 battleship > Machariels > AHAC T3s meta, got removed in last year's balance passes.) After these blows, fleet Machariels only really have two uses: 1) hazing HACs, which a number of T1 fleet concepts can do just as well; 2) MWD/AC/heavy neut Machs that are a decent QRF in your own space where you can out-escalate big T1 battleship blobs or capital escalations.

As with all armor fleet concepts, expect a lot of midslot refits.

1400 fleet Machs look like this, but you won't see them much for the above reasons:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, fleet 1400]

Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane

100MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
Drone Link Augmentor II
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Bouncer II x4
Acolyte II x5


QRF Machariels look like this:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, qrf 800]

1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane

500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Scan Resolution Dampening Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Scan Resolution Dampening Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Bouncer II x4
Acolyte II x5
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2018.06.25 16:44

Re: Machariel

I used to run Level 4 missions in a Mach. However that was before the slot layout change. Does anyone have a good PvE Level 4 Blitz Mach fit? The one I ran was armor tanked but I have also seen them Shield tanked. I haven't been able to find anything on them after the change to the mach.
Image ImageImageImageImage
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.06.26 01:50

Re: Machariel

Cryptic Sharvas wrote:I used to run Level 4 missions in a Mach. However that was before the slot layout change. Does anyone have a good PvE Level 4 Blitz Mach fit? The one I ran was armor tanked but I have also seen them Shield tanked. I haven't been able to find anything on them after the change to the mach.

Was that fit you came up on your own or you found a good article about it?
Show the fit you've used, curious how agile it was, at least that will give an idea how that can look like.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.06.26 14:07

Re: Machariel

The old blitz Mach was 1400mm arty with an active armor tank and 3 gyros, the idea was you only picked blitz-able L4s, blapped only the targets you needed, and warped next mission/back to the agent. Pretty sure you can't fit that exact fit anymore because of the low > mid rebalance. Could probably fit an ok shield tank with 3 gyros and a couple tracking enhancers? I don't remember any of the details of blitzing L4s, it's been a long time.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

Join Fweddit - Be a Space Chikun!
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2018.06.26 15:54

Re: Machariel

Budda,

This is the fit I last used. Standard stuff applies about changing armor Hardeners, I also switched to a Micro Jump drive for some of the missions.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Machariel, Blitz Machariel]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Centus C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II


Caldari Navy Warden x4
Hobgoblin II x5


The only time I changed to the 1400mm arty fit was for Dread Pirate Scarlet, I unfortunately no longer have that fit.

Also a lot of the other Blitz fits I have seen use a Shield setup. I'm wondering if that is the way to go
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