Heron

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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.04.29 20:01

Heron

We missed posting fits for Heron.

Proposing to keep existing Explorer fit:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Heron, Heron - Std. Beginner Explorer Mk2]
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Improved Cloaking Device II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Scan Pinpointing Array I
Type-E Enduring Cargo Scanner
Relic Analyzer I
Data Analyzer I

Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

Hobgoblin I x3
Hornet EC-300 x3

Core Scanner Probe I x16


FW Troll-fit:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Heron, AB MASB - Bait]

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Warp Scrambler II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x2
Hobgoblin II x3


Cap Booster 50 x2
Void S x2612
Null S x64
Barrage S x1566
Republic Fleet EMP S x1112
Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S x578
Scourge Rage Rocket x500
Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x10
Navy Cap Booster 50 x17


Any other good fit?
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Zykey Jovakko

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Post 2018.04.29 21:53

Re: Heron

SPOILER WARNING!
[Heron, *Cheap Explorer]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Medium Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
Scan Pinpointing Array I
Relic Analyzer I
Data Analyzer I

Core Probe Launcher I
Improved Cloaking Device II

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I



Hornet EC-300 x3

Core Scanner Probe I x8


This is a fit that I much prefer over the standard explorer fit you posted. It has enough EHP to stand a chance at smartbombers. It isn't as fast, but you will be using the Cloak/MWD trick to escape trouble so I feel the Nanofibers are redundant. It also loses the cargo scanner but thats a nice to have imho and not necessary for running sites.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.04.30 03:56

Re: Heron

Zykey Jovakko wrote:[spoiler]
This is a fit that I much prefer over the standard explorer fit you posted. It has enough EHP to stand a chance at smartbombers. It isn't as fast, but you will be using the Cloak/MWD trick to escape trouble so I feel the Nanofibers are redundant. It also loses the cargo scanner but that's a nice to have IMHO and not necessary for running sites.

I was hacking A LOT in WH-space and a little bit in null.

In WH space - SBs are not a concern, but time and the hacking speed are so you MUST have a cargo scanner and check if it is worth 'crawling' to another container which often is quite far away. Plus you need to have extra agility and speed to run if you are ganked.

In nul, ... you should not hack if there are people in local, unless you have WH experience and have strong reasons to believe that guy is not camping for you. And if you are - you will need inertial agility and speed to run away before you are scrammed/pointed.
Smart bombs... is a problem only if you warp gate to gate (and went you jump through the gate smartbombers won't get you). But the bigger problem is bubbles so in nul you should not warp gate-to-gate. Unless you have +1 scout. So you don't need that tank. Also, having higher speed will help you to burn out of the bubble.

So I would argue you don't need tank, you need speed and agility. Does this make sense?
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.05.01 03:49

Re: Heron

For a cheap explorer that sure is quite high SP fit. It needs Power Grid Management to 5 to fit without implants.

I had this on draft for a bit but Budda hit pretty much the point I was going to make. The Heron is only an entry level ship. Between tank and speed, I'd prefer speed at least for running sites. The nimble ones get away unless you get found by a stealth bomber or that rare cloaky smartbombing T3C but in those cases any amount of tank this ship can get won't be enough. The nanofibers also complement the cloak MWD trick with an improved cloak.

I would carry forward the existing fit. Newbros and Alphas can omit or downgrade what they can't fly.
  • Cloak: Alphas have to remove. Prefer Improved Cloak for speed while cloaked. Prototype Cloak will impair Cloak+MWD trick but will still give some safety.
  • Scan Pinpointing Array I: Can be replaced with Scan Rangefinding Array or Scan Acquisition Array I in case skills are low. Alternatively a Sensor Booster can help with both Scan Resolution and ECCM scripts. Could also put an ECM mod in there but its hit or miss in terms of benefits.
  • Hornet EC-300: Alphas can't use them so will need to replace. The only useful drone so if you can skill into them this should be in the drone bay.
ImageImageImageImage ImageImageImage
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K950

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Post 2018.05.01 14:32

Re: Heron

That is my fit up there so I'll answer for it.

The double nano fit is intended more for efficiency and defense against Asteros. Aside from smartbombing Proteii and stealth bombers, an alert pilot can bail against any other type of threat, including interdictors. The simple reason is speed: 3.3km/sec cold, 4.8km/sec heated, which is faster than an Astero or an interdictor. With Alpha skills the ship aligns in 4 seconds, 3 seconds with better skills - remarkably good for this job. The scan pinpointing array is choice here because any other choice of array will be stacking penalized too hard against the double gravity capacitor rigs and the pinpointing array allows for more precision in scanning. Scan strength can only go up with skills with this fit.

The Medium Shield Extender fit is prefered by some times, in part by me. It will tank a smartbombing Proteii long enough to bail or a single smartbombing battleship on an outgate (3000 alpha from 8 large faction smartbombs for reference). Personally I'm a bit of a fan of having an Expanded launcher on hand.

For alphas I recommend the Probe, like this:

  Code:
[Probe, Probe - No Tank MWD No Guns Alpha Explorer Meta4]

Type-D Restrained Nanofiber Structure
Type-D Restrained Nanofiber Structure
Type-D Restrained Overdrive Injector

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Data Analyzer I
Relic Analyzer I
Type-E Enduring Cargo Scanner

Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
[Empty Rig slot]


Warrior I x3
Acolyte I x3


Cheap as chips, under a mil. With Alpha skills, aligns in 4 seconds, 3.4km/sec cold, 4.9km/sec heated. Alphas can't use pinpointing arrays, so the extra mid on a Heron isn't very useful. You may T2 the lows if you prefer.

Having killed someone before who was using overdrives on his Probe I can say that hunting one of those with an interdictor can be rough: a standard cloaky dictor has a roughly 8 or 9 second recalibration time, by which a good pilot will be gone. (He almost got away. My last bubble did the trick: he probably burnt out his MWD, I believe I almost burnt out mine.) Asteros likewise are pretty slow under a MWD, barely workable with a shield nano fit (which nobody smart uses for w-space ambushes) so you've got a pretty good chance of slipping away. Figure the Astero pilot has Cloaking to IV, which most people do, that means a 6 second recalibration time plus a ... 4 second lock time. At that time you should be already outside point range going at least 4km/sec -- you're gone.
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Flack Keikira

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Post 2018.05.01 18:57

Re: Heron

Should there be at least a bit of discussion on the use of Relic/Data rigs versus scanning rigs? I feel like as a very low-skill pilot the Relic/Data rig boost helped a lot, though for intermediate-skilled pilots the scanning rigs make sense.

Also, I wouldn't mind the wiki being opinionated on Sisters probes/launchers (I imagine the recommendation would be one of "sisters probes: not even once", "great idea if you like your inevitable death being more expensive", or "recommended if you can afford them" but I don't know where this crowd would fall.).
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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2018.05.01 19:40

Re: Heron

The basic hacking only fit for the T1 frigates is in principle always same.

Lows: Agility/speed/warp core str
Mids: Data/relic/cargo scan/pinpoint/rangefind/aqcuisition/MWD
High: Probes/cloak
rigs: Gravity capacitor/hacking rig

Swapping data analyzer for rangefind array doesn't really change the fit. It is the same fit but with slightly different flavor.

I think the wiki should show only one this kind of fit for a ship and use the "notes" box to show fitting variations. What modules are "mandatory" and what modules are for flavor.
"Low: you can fit for
* Agility (inertia stabilizers) to align away faster. Remember that aligning is rounded UP to nearest second.
* Speed (overdrives) to burn out of bubbles and through sites faster.
* Little bit of speed and agility (mixed or nanofibers).
* Warp strength (warp core stabilizers) to run even if someone manages to point you."

Same for mid slots and rigs.
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Flack Keikira

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Post 2018.05.01 20:06

Re: Heron

Agree. Also, I don't think I ever successfully used drones in a Heron, a fact I'd never thought about. Probably the note for drones should be "ECM drones if you can fly them. If not, Hobgoblins, maybe, if you've just got them lying around, whatever."
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K950

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Post 2018.05.02 01:59

Re: Heron

Hacking rigs are garbage. They do increase your coherence (HP) but if you're serious about hacking you'll have T2 Analyzers.

Sisters' probes are nice if your skills aren't good.

I never recommend WCS because proper hunters use double scram (ideally scram + faction scram) and will account for WCS. Your best hope is evasion via speed and paying attention. If I suspect it's a quad stab Astero (Magnates are typically fit that way) it's easy enough to hard counter with a cloaky dictor and a bomber with a scram + web. That combo counters everything except dual A-Type max tank fit Asteros -- for those, a Stratios on hand will solve that problem nicely with 3 medium neuts and 550 DPS.
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Flack Keikira

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Post 2018.05.02 02:37

Re: Heron

That extra coherence is still nice if you've only got things trained to III. I had great fun dying in wormholes with embarassingly low skills, and the mods saved my hacks multiple times.

Just saying no to warp core stabilizers makes sense. Herons are gonna align away in time or they're gonna die.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.05.03 02:25

Re: Heron

Flack Keikira wrote:Should there be at least a bit of discussion on the use of Relic/Data rigs versus scanning rigs? I feel like as a very low-skill pilot the Relic/Data rig boost helped a lot, though for intermediate-skilled pilots the scanning rigs make sense.

Also, I wouldn't mind the wiki being opinionated on Sisters probes/launchers (I imagine the recommendation would be one of "sisters probes: not even once", "great idea if you like your inevitable death being more expensive", or "recommended if you can afford them" but I don't know where this crowd would fall.).

I'd encourage hacking Relic sites in nul-sec or WH. Why? Because they are 3-4 times more profitable than data sites (at least that was the case a year ago). With this, I'd fit rigs that benefit hacking relic sites: even if you can't hack 1-2 data containers - you won't lose much, but having a higher chance hacking relic will benefit.

K950 wrote:Hacking rigs are garbage. They do increase your coherence (HP) but if you're serious about hacking you'll have T2 Analyzers.

You do need T2 analyzers, but rigs won't hurt. And if you are considering the choice between rigs for scanning vs rigs for hacking, then think about that:
- scanning time can decrease time you spend, but if it is 10 minutes per site or 10.5 minutes - does not matter.
- but if you miss hacking a container that has 50M stuff... you will use hacking rigs immediately.

And again guys, your best security is checking local or d-scan.

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