Vedmak

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Xenopha Cadelanne
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Vedmak

Post by Xenopha Cadelanne »

Although I haven't flown a Vedmak yet because they're absurdly expensive and I don't have any of the skills trained, I've started theorycrafting a little bit with the new Pyfa update to see what possible fits I can come up with.

Afterburner RR Fleet:
Spoiler
[Vedmak, Vedmak - RR Fleet Small Reps]

800mm Steel Plates II
Mark I Compact Reactor Control Unit
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult M
Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Medium Anti-Thermal Pump II


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
I decided to use deadspace small reps on this fit because they are fairly cheap, have significantly more repping power than two T2 medium RRs, use less cap, have a similar range, and are fairly cheap at around 6.5 mil apiece.


MWD Solo Kite/Brawl:
Spoiler
[Vedmak, Vedmak - MWD Point Web]

Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult M
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead II
Medium Transverse Bulkhead II
Medium Transverse Bulkhead II


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
This fit should be capable of both kiting with its high speed and agility and brawling with good tracking. It will also have extraordinary dps for a cruiser if allowed to charge to full, with nearly 1200 dps using Occult (T2 close range ammo) and nearly 900 with Mystic (Long range T2 ammo).


AB Solo:
Spoiler
[Vedmak, Vedmak - AB Scram Web]

Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult M
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead II
Medium Transverse Bulkhead II
Medium Transverse Bulkhead II


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
This fit is more geared towards brawling in FW space. The goal is to scram-kite the opponent and build up charge.
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Raido Kudonen
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Re: Vedmak

Post by Raido Kudonen »

Okay. Let's start with some basic principles of fitting the Vedmak (or the other two Trig ships).

Fitting cost:

It's hard to say where the price will settle, but given that the process for getting Triglavian BPCs is much riskier than the process for getting pirate faction BPCs and seems to require comparable investments, it's reasonable to expect that the price will settle at least a bit above the price of Mordus Legion hulls. It follows that any reasonable fit for such a hull would include the liberal use of faction mods wherever these would help.

Likely use cases:

Excluding idiots from NC. deciding to yolo their Vedmak into an abyssal rift and, predictably, welping it, the most likely use for the Triglavian ships is RR small gangs, given their bonuses. Throwing a few into other armor fleets as firewallers is also quite plausible, and I suppose you might throw a neut on just for fun. Solo fits are right out, both because these are going to be nice vanity killmails and because none of the ships' bonuses remotely support solo PvP.

So the first fit at least serves a plausible use case, even though it's badly flawed. The second and third probably don't.

Side note on AAR/bulkhead dual tanks:

The idea of running a small AAR over hull buffer in frigates is largely to give you enough buffer that you don't get volleyed through reps; this is not really relevant with cruisers, since anything that can do 17k alpha (the EHP of your AB scram web fit with the bulkheads removed) isn't engageable to begin with. In cruiser-size ships, kiting AAR fits usually rig for damage/application (not possible for Trigs at this time), speed/agility, or rep amount. Brawling AAR fits usually are dual-rep with rigs for resists or rep rate/amount.

Discussion of a RR small gang fit:

I don't know what you're doing with all that power grid. I like the small reps idea - deadspace A-types are quite good for RR concepts because they're easy on cap and have relatively good range and hp/second - so let's go with that. Then take off all of the mids and all of the low slots that aren't DPS mods, because they're all T2 and that's wrong.

If you're using these as DPS for a very heavy snatch-style fleet, where you have some RR Magi and these fill both the DPS and bonused remote rep roles, you can probably do okay with a 10mn prop and utility mids. (Normal snatchfleets, were they to use Triglavian ships, would certainly use the frigates over the cruisers, because warp speed is great. We have, however, used the Talos in a "heavy snatch" concept, and these would work much better than the Talos in many cases.) Under these assumptions, I'd consider something like the following. You would, of course, mix tackle mods throughout the gang, or else consider swapping the tackle out for tracking computers if you had enough numbers for dedicated tackle.
Spoiler
[Vedmak, Vedmak - RR Fleet Small Reps]

Federation Navy 800mm Steel Plates
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Shadow Serpentis 10MN Afterburner
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult M
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Xenopha Cadelanne
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Re: Vedmak

Post by Xenopha Cadelanne »

Well I definitely agree on the majority of points, I do have to contend two of them.
Solo fits are right out, both because these are going to be nice vanity killmails and because none of the ships' bonuses remotely support solo PvP.
For one thing, you say that the price will likely settle around or a little above that of the Mordu's Legion hulls, which I agree with. People use Orthruses for solo: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33818/solo/ Moreover, The price of a hull doesn't mean that people won't fly it solo. People fly T3Cs and BLOPs solo regularly. Secondly, I would argue that several of the ship's bonuses do support solo. Damage bonuses, tracking bonuses, and neut bonuses, combined with the base speed and agility of the Vedmak, mean that in many ways the Vedmak is quite suited for solo.
The idea of running a small AAR over hull buffer in frigates is largely to give you enough buffer that you don't get volleyed through reps; this is not really relevant with cruisers, since anything that can do 17k alpha (the EHP of your AB scram web fit with the bulkheads removed) isn't engageable to begin with. In cruiser-size ships, kiting AAR fits usually rig for damage/application (not possible for Trigs at this time), speed/agility, or rep amount. Brawling AAR fits usually are dual-rep with rigs for resists or rep rate/amount.
It is true that for frigates and destroyers hull rigs are generally to avoid being alpha'ed through reps. However, they have another purpose on cruisers. They give significant amounts of buffer without reducing speed. It's completely valid to fit speed/agility rigs on the kiting version or resist/rep rigs on the brawling version, but it's perfectly acceptable to put extra buffer that doesn't reduce speed, especially on the kiting version.
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Raido Kudonen
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Re: Vedmak

Post by Raido Kudonen »

Xenopha Cadelanne wrote:Well I definitely agree on the majority of points, I do have to contend two of them.

For one thing, you say that the price will likely settle around or a little above that of the Mordu's Legion hulls, which I agree with. People use Orthruses for solo: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33818/solo/ Moreover, The price of a hull doesn't mean that people won't fly it solo. People fly T3Cs and BLOPs solo regularly. Secondly, I would argue that several of the ship's bonuses do support solo. Damage bonuses, tracking bonuses, and neut bonuses, combined with the base speed and agility of the Vedmak, mean that in many ways the Vedmak is quite suited for solo.
Go back and look at the list of kills you linked, consider what people use the Orthrus for in solo, and then consider whether the Vedmak is suited for that. Spoiler alert: It's not.

"Solo" blops is a misnomer. It refers to a single person multiboxing (at minimum) a hunter and a blops BS, which should tell you something about how those are actually used. T3Cs are kind of in the middle between the Orthrus and solo blopsing - they're usually some type of coward fit, and those that try to out-tank their targets (rather than either hunting gank victims or hazing small stuff) usually die ignominiously.

Now go back and look at the Vedmak's actual bonuses. Bonuses to remote reps are, obviously, 100% useless in solo. Bonuses to neut usage (but not neut range) are also bad for solo ships, because you have to brawl to use neuts effectively, and brawling is bad in expensive hulls. Bonuses to smartbomb cap usage are also bad in solo, because smartbomb ganking relies on alpha - the use case for running smartbombs over some length of time is in fleets. Finally, the Vedmak entirely lacks a tank bonus, which is pretty much universal among solo brawlers (such as those T3Cs and rep-bonused HACs).

As for DPS and application bonuses, you're missing the core damage mechanic of the Triglavian ships. Doing more damage with longer engagements is good for people in gangs or in larger fleets, and bad for solo players, because the longer it takes for you to kill someone, the longer their friends have to catch up. This brings us back to the beginning: Expensive solo ships are viable when you're too rich to care (in which case you don't need the UniWiki) and when your engagement profile includes lots of potential exit strategies. The Orthrus is a great solo ship because its speed, RLML projection, and point bonus allow it to engage from far away and run away easily, because its scram bonus and ludicrous fitting room for a medium neut allow it to prevent frigates from ramming it, and because its damage bonus allows it to kill multiple frigates very quickly before warping off when its RLMLs hit reload. The Vedmak is a mediocre solo ship because anytime it tackles a target, the target can tackle back, because its damage projection is mediocre for a solo cruiser and has a very sharp drop-off, and because its damage starts off mediocre, so that it only does its best damage when attacking something larger and tougher than it.
Xenopha Cadelanne wrote:It is true that for frigates and destroyers hull rigs are generally to avoid being alpha'ed through reps. However, they have another purpose on cruisers. They give significant amounts of buffer without reducing speed.
Which doesn't matter for solo fits, once you've crossed the line between getting volleyed by a Tornado/Machariel sitting at range off your warp-in and not being volleyed. People throw multiple extenders on some solo shield ships because you can get some regen while pinging off or kiting bad guys. Kiting armor cruisers don't go hull tank because the tradeoffs don't justify it, especially compared to nano pumps/accelerators, cap/grid, and (for other ships) damage/application.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Budda Sereda
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Re: Vedmak

Post by Budda Sereda »

Thanks guys. Published the latest fit.
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