Oneiros

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.18 21:26

Oneiros

There are two fits on the wiki at the moment:
The "4T2" Fit which is a 4 large rep fit
And the "HABD Veteran" which is a similar fit but uses a Cap booster instead of batteries/rechargers.

Both of these fits have a large amount of rep and decent EHP but suffer from the main problem of a lack of Cap. Using a cap booster is inconsistent and dangerous, and the 4T2 isn't stable running everything which is a really bad idea.

There are two fits i'd recommend be added in replacement for the two above:

Buffer:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, Buffer]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Medium Cap Battery II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

Self Rep
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, Self Rep]

Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Large Cap Battery II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

The buffer fit has increased EHP which is always good and is very stable, it also has ECM Resistance. It reps less but is a more stable and consistent repper.
The Self rep is the same as above in terms of out going rep, but also has the ability to rep itself. This would usually only be used either in a pair or solo, as when you have 3 or more Oneiros' you'd want to go buffer instead.
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.05.20 16:44

Re: Oneiros

First off, poorfitting T2 logi hulls is incorrect because the hulls are damn expensive and very much worth protecting.

Second, you should not fit non-cap-chain logi to be super cap stable. Always start your fit by looking up "Strong Mindflood" in pyfa (or "Improved Mindflood" if you really need to fit for poors) and putting that in your fit, and don't worry about cap stability until you start running out of cap with Mindflood active. That stuff's mandatory for local-cap logi.

Third, Remote Repair Augmentors are trash. They don't augment anything, they just reduce cap consumption, and T2 ships' rig slots are too scarce to waste time with that. (This is a special case of #2, but it's worth calling out.)

Fourth, here's a fixed buffer Oneiros fit to give you an idea of what you should be looking for. It's not the be-all end-all, but it's pretty good for an AB Oneiros.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, Buffer]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Remote Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Fifth and finally, if you're researching MWD Guardians and don't already have MWD Oneiros fits, you have it ass-backwards. Highly mobile MWD logi fits tend to work much better when you're allowed to fly independently if it becomes necessary, and cap chain logi fits don't work well for that. As a general rule, if you're going for skirmishy fleet concepts that have MWD T2 logi, the default is Scimitar/Oneiros.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.20 18:35

Re: Oneiros

Couldn't decide whether the MWD one was a bit too niche or not. I'll put one up here though as i had one ready.
Remote repair augmentors can "sometimes" give more stability than a CCC, but then you're deciding between cheaper reps, or better recharge rate.

I totally agree, i don't know why i hadn't thought of it but yes, mindflood should be a staple in logi cruisers.

Updated versions:

AB Buffer:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, Buffer]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Remote Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

I didn't Deadspace the reps because if you t2 the mediums, you can t2 the large which gives an equal amount of rep, the only downside is a 8% loss in cap stability. (but even the deadspace rep version can be neuted with a single medium neut so i don't know whether there is much of a reason to bling)

AB Self-Rep:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, Self Rep]

Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Remote Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

Remember that only self rep, or remote rep should be run at once. not both.
Also no mindflood here due to the local rep penalty you might get.

MWD Buffer:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, MWD]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized EM Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.05.21 13:21

Re: Oneiros

Narthe Raytei wrote:I didn't Deadspace the reps because if you t2 the mediums, you can t2 the large which gives an equal amount of rep, the only downside is a 8% loss in cap stability. (but even the deadspace rep version can be neuted with a single medium neut so i don't know whether there is much of a reason to bling)


As has come up on the Guardian thread, the rep amount and cap stability aren't the only factors you should be looking at when selecting remote reps. The optimal/falloff are also very important, and T2 large/T2 medium reps have a big gap in optimal. This means that you lose a big chunk of your rep power (and the reps that land faster, which is important when bad guys target switch) if you fly at Large II optimal, and the Large II optimal is wasted if you fly at Medium II optimal. Large Enduring and C-type Medium, however, have an almost identical optimal range that splits the difference between Large II and Medium II. (This also applies to your MWD fit, but doubly so, because MWD logi has the option of independently piloting to maximize your reps or transversal as needed.)

A couple points on the self-rep fit.

First off, it's reasonable to not want to use Strong Mindflood on a self-rep fit. However, you could avoid this drawback (and still improve your cap stability) with Synth Mindflood, which doesn't have side effects. You could also invest in Antipharmakon Aeolis and Agency Hardshell to improve cap and self rep, respectively, and similarly avoid side effects with a high drug strength.

Second, dual t2 armor reps are really never used, because the burst reps from an ancillary rep are so much better than a T2 rep. Since you can usually rep 8 cycles and then pull range to reload, you should avoid going straight T2. If you want to be hard core stable self rep, which is more of a thing for solo brawl HACs than for solo logi, you go double deadspace rep (C-types are usually fine) because the rep rate is so much greater than with the T2. However, you'll maximize your burst reps (within reasonable cost constraints) with a C-type and a Medium AAR.

Third, the reason you probably don't go double deadspace local rep on a solo logi fit has something to do with another questionable choice in your solo fit: a 10mn prop mod. Under what circumstances would you expect to use solo logi, but also commit at brawl range? It's far more common to fit solo logi with 50mn or 100mn prop, which this synergizes with skirmishy gameplay where you pull range when focused while heating your AAR. So burst reps > stable reps.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.21 15:29

Re: Oneiros

Fair point on the Medium and large rep things i'll update those.
Synth also good point, will stick that on.

The difference between using 2 T2 and 1 T2+MAAR would be that sure you gain more burst reps, but you should be at range anyway, so if you're taking enough damage to need an MAAR you're taking too much damage in the first place.

Most fights with a logi ship will go on long enough that the burst reps and then bad reps will be a hindrance rather than an advantage so having consistent but slightly weaker reps would give you the staying power that a reloading MAAR and a single T2 rep wouldn't. Also the advantages of the AB as mentioned below increase the effectiveness of the Dual T2 reps.

The AB is there because you're meant to be at range anyway when you warp in. The AB gives better damage mitigation and doesn't penalize your cap.
There is however and argument for the MWD Selfrep too as you could pulse it, this would probably also be the better fit to have the T2+MAAR since you don't have the damage mitigation of the AB.

So

AB Buffer
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, AB Buffer]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Remote Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x2
Scan Resolution Script x2

MWD Buffer
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, MWD Buffer]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized EM Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Remote Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x2
Scan Resolution Script x2

AB Self-Rep
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, AB Self Rep]

Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN Afterburner II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Synth Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1

MWD Self-Rep
SPOILER WARNING!
[Oneiros, MWD Self Rep]

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Large I-ax Enduring Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Synth Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100


That's what the collection is currently looking like. Any major objections?
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.05.21 23:41

Re: Oneiros

Narthe Raytei wrote:The difference between using 2 T2 and 1 T2+MAAR would be that sure you gain more burst reps, but you should be at range anyway, so if you're taking enough damage to need an MAAR you're taking too much damage in the first place.


You might think so, but realistically you should take another look at the numbers. With MAAR + C-type MAR, you've got a minute of just under 850 ehp/s, which is pretty close to a carrier's applied DPS (if you're MWDing with links) or a couple of battleships' applied DPS at range. It doesn't out-rep the RLML reload of 2x Orthrus, but you shouldn't bleed much hull during the reload and then you can burn away and rep back up with the T2. (Double T2 MAR won't let you survive any of these because T2 MARs are lackluster without a bonus to local reps.)

Any force more threatening than the above weight class - stuff you can engage with a small gang of an Oneiros, a couple of AFs, and 3-4 faction/'T2/T3 cruises for DPS - and you don't have the ability to rep your tackle or DPS ships through the bad guys' damage anyway. At that point, you either have to ping around on the grid to split up the bad guys, or you have to warp off and find something else to fight.

Narthe Raytei wrote:Most fights with a logi ship will go on long enough that the burst reps and then bad reps will be a hindrance rather than an advantage so having consistent but slightly weaker reps would give you the staying power that a reloading MAAR and a single T2 rep wouldn't. Also the advantages of the AB as mentioned below increase the effectiveness of the Dual T2 reps.


Actually, being able to burst tank for about a minute is pretty much as long as you should need to rep if you're using a solo logi. Small gangs - with solo logi, we're talking 5-9 ships on grid - don't win by brawling, they win by outflying and often outspending the opposition. If you have more than 10 people in the group, you should have 2-3 buffer logi instead of using solo logi fits at all.

Narthe Raytei wrote:The AB is there because you're meant to be at range anyway when you warp in. The AB gives better damage mitigation and doesn't penalize your cap.
There is however and argument for the MWD Selfrep too as you could pulse it, this would probably also be the better fit to have the T2+MAAR since you don't have the damage mitigation of the AB.


The idea that you can warp into a fight at range is somewhere between too situational to depend on (wormholers who only ever engage on their side of the wormhole, I guess?) and so unreliable it's pointless. Small gangs that move at 10mn speed are small gangs that get out-escalated and welp. 100mn fits aren't absurd, but you need mid-grade snakes + links to make them work.

In the small gang environment, it's also imprecise to say that ABs give better damage mitigation than MWDs. This is mathematically true, but only in the duration in which you're getting shot. The whole point of local reps on solo logi is that when people try to ram you, your own tackle and screeners have some time to slow them down so that you can relocate to a better position on grid. MWDs or oversized ABs will get you to a better position on grid in a reasonable time; normal sized ABs generally won't.
"What is good in life, Raido?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.22 01:16

Re: Oneiros

Fair points, they all make alot of sense in terms of running in nullsec and lowsec but in w-space it's slightly different.
Speaking more in terms of the AB thing; there are alot of times were having the AB and warping in at range is very viable as alot of w-space fights are on something and have some kind of warp in. Plus the space is "generally" more suited to the AB variant as most things are slower. Though i think the MWD setup would be a good thing in w-space also.

TLDR: I'm looking at it from a W-space perspective and can't really speak for the null-sec side as i haven't enough experience.

Reps and stuff i totally see your point and agree. The MWD one is already using an MAAR and a T2 Rep (as C-type armour reps are incredibly expensive and i think that would be down to pilot choice to bling).

So i think maybe the AB version needs to be specified as a W-space fit then due to the fact it is, for the reasons you've listed, not a good idea for k-space. Other than the Reps points, which are fair, i'd maintain that an AB Self rep does work well, but probably only in w-space.
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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