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Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.22 08:54
by Narthe Raytei
K950 wrote:"Scimitar stuff"

Take it to the scimitar thread.
K950 wrote:I should have saved it in my library, but neglected to because I felt that without some reasoning into why it was fit that way, I didn't want to endorse it.

K950 wrote:but if you do that it has to be triple A-Type ANPs, and nothing less.

I'm gonna just leave this here.
K950 wrote:The principle reason I brought it up was because without A-Type ANPs you cannot run ANPs on a Tech II, Tech III or pirate faction setup and obtain an acceptable level of tank over faction EANMs. Some ships explicitly require them to actually function correctly - for a Guardian, most recommend it if you run an ANP or two.

T2 is fine, the reason you use an ANP is because of fitting, it requires no CPU. Sure, an A-type is very much better, but it also costs a whole bunch more. T2, T2 and pirate hulls do not require deadspace for an ANP. The difference between a T2 ANP(15.4%) and a T2 EANM(20%) is 4.6%, that does not scream awful to me.
K950 wrote:It is also generally expected that most ships involved in w-space brawls will be blinged to a fairly respectable level because each ship is expected to perform at its peak efficiency. K-Space doctrine ships vary of course, partially because of the scope of the engagement -- if I was bringing a Guardian to a Mach versus Mach fleet mine wouldn't be that blingy because 70 Machs don't really care what tank level you have.

Not true, speaking as someone who has lived in w-space for 5 years, high levels of bling is NOT common. For example, 1, 2, 3, 4,
K950 wrote:The original Kaboose fit ......etc

Meta levels don't make a fit totally different, the core of the fit is the same and the core of the fit has already been decided as bad due to a single ET. That fit is also 7+ years old and the meta has changed since.
K950 wrote:Excessive bling on a Guardian would be: full X-Type reppers, A-Type medium reppers, faction plate and a deadspace afterburner, all together, which probably won't fit. X-Type hardeners, depending on when and where you get them, are actually not that bad -- but I would concur that we shouldn't have that set up on the Wiki because it's not something that is easily acquired in larger numbers. But much like putting cheap tires or bargain-bottom paint on a nice automobile is considered wrong by many people, experienced players generally agree that a modest amount of bling on a Guardian is respectable. In fact, expected in some cases, such as the C-Type medium remotes, which Raido states as well.

Which is why there is guidelines on that, the current one states that the fitting of the ship must not exceed the price of the hull. Sticking 3 A-type ANP's would do exactly that.
K950 wrote:Just like A-Type AIFs, CONCORD shield extenders and X-Type hardeners are expected on shield supers and titans, good players expect Guardians to have faction plates, and we should have good fits up on the wiki to meet those expectations, especially for the w-space fits.

Not always, as stated previous that depends on who you're flying with and what purpose. Faction plates are common, but not expected. You also need to remember that faction plates have a higher fitting cost which can make the rest of the ship difficult to fit.
K950 wrote:The responses such as "This is just wrong..." and "Which honestly is not worth it in the slightest..." and "100mil isk for 6k EHP is not worth it by any means whatsoever" are the kind of feedback that indicate to me that my input is void, when I base my suggestions for these fits off competent alliance doctrines and literally copy right off them.

The initial comments were made to a stated fact with no evidence, which was then contradicted btw. and the "100mil isk for 6k EHP is not worth it by any means whatsoever" is a comment that you could respond to and say why you think it is.

The current proposed fits can be blinged up slightly. Sure, and that will be done; but as of yet i haven't seen any feedback that would fundamentally change the current fits. Just adjust modules and their bling.

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.23 23:09
by Cassiel Seraphim
I would just like to point something out about the discussion surrounding the Damage Control II vs Adaptive Nano Platings and Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes. The platings and membranes benefit from the armour compensation skills, which gives them a whole lot more resists than what comparison tools might show initially.

- Damage Control II (30 CPU) has a set boost of 15% armour resists (doesn't suffer from stacking penalties).
- 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I (0 CPU) starts with 15,4% armour resists, up to 19,2% with skills.
- Imperial Navy Adaptive Nano Plating (0 CPU) starts with 17,5% armour resists, up to 21,9% with skills.
- Coreli Adaptive Nano Plating (0 CPU) starts with 23,7% armour resists, up to 29,6% with skills.
- Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II (36 CPU) starts with 20% armour resists, up to 25% with skills.
- Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (30 CPU) starts with 22,5% armour resists, but can be as high as 28,1% with skills.

Even if you consider stacking penalties for the non-DC modules and compensation skills to III, they are often far stronger and end up providing more resists, at least for the first one or two stacking penalties. This is why you don't see the damage control module as often when you're dealing with fits using only a couple of modules that are being stacking penalized. Because it isn't until you start piling up on stacking penalties and add command bursts to the mix that you really benefit enough from the fact the damage control isn't stacking penalized. On top of that, the platings require no CPU and have even stronger and relatively cheap faction and deadspace variants to further capitalize on that. The popular A-type deadspace platings have nearly twice the resists of a damage control, at no fitting cost. And you can still find those for like 70-90 million depending on market fluctuation.

So I would recommend to use anything but the Damage Control II for these fits, as even the tech two platings will yield better results at no cost to CPU (which means you can use that elsewhere).

I would also strongly argue for some bling there. The damage type specific membranes and hardeners have plenty of faction (or even deadspace) variants for 5-10 mil and the omni-modules usually have faction modules for 30-40 mil that are significantly better. So while it makes sense to limit the modules that cost 100+ million, I think we'd be remiss not to promote and highlight the very affordable faction variants and some of the cheap deadspace variants for specific hardeners, platings and membranes. Many of those variants also reduce CPU costs, allowing you to upgrade other modules further improving the fit.

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.23 23:24
by Narthe Raytei
Fair points and nice breakdown.
Will update with smart bling tomorrow and check the difference between the ANP's vs the DC's on the fits using them.

(Though I personally still think the A-type ANP's in particular are overpriced)

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.24 00:41
by K950
Thank you for the reminder on those resistances Cassiel.

I think most people who skill well into armor train them the compensation skills to IV, although the only pilots I've seen train them to V are Supercarrier and Titan pilots because A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes are expected on Armor Supers and Titans, and greater resistances with a significantly larger buffer is a bigger deal than tiny levels of resistances gained on a Rifter. This is not what the common man can be expected to aim for though, and I believe IV is good enough for all other cases. The four extra weeks it takes to train all four to V can usually better spent on Surgical Strike V or other skills.

A-Type ANPs are relatively easy to get though, they drop from 3/10s in Serpentis space (Narcotics Warehouses, Coreli), Blood Raider space (Intelligence Collection Point, Corpii) and Sansha space (Command Relay Outpost, Centii). The sites are easy to run in a RLML Caracal or even faster with a long range Rocket Jackdaw.

However I would agree that we should not put a standard doctrine fit with those set up with those specific meta levels because it is kinda pushing it on the "reasonable" scale. 2mil Dark Blood Energized Thermal Membranes are reasonable though, or cheap C-Types. We must be careful because of price swings on those modules, but because the Guardian is expected to keep its fleetmates alive, I firmly believe in a reasonable level of bling to ensure that. The good thing is at least the modules in question don't cost as much as the shield modules do -- a Pithum C-Type AIF is over 300m alone, and if you wanted a C-Type EM Ward Field that sets you back a casual 55mil.

The Imperial Navy EANM is usually a good and stable priced module which, if CPU permits, which it usually does, offers almost the same resistances as an A-Type ANP but is less than half the cost. I think it's worth it for both K-space Guardians (alpha damage resistance) and W-space Guardians (where sustained DPS must be managed).

There is a solid reasoning for the damage control, if you end up bleeding into structure a bit the Damage Control helps. It remains to be a doctrine choice though of either the EANM or the damage control. This can be solved by fitting one, then carrying the other in cargo if you have a few Guardians on standby ready to go.

In other news I found the triple A-Type ANP Guardian. https://zkillboard.com/kill/69159847/ Hole Control losses get a bit interesting: A-Type medium cap transmitters with double trimarks and a reactive with A-Type passive hardeners? Interesting...costly, but interesting. Not really a standard Guardian at that point, but a fascinating but non-standard concept. Hole Control Guardian losses: https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99004344/ship/11987/losses/

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.24 04:51
by Decklin Quark Reiger
K950 wrote:I think most people who skill well into armor train them the compensation skills to IV, although the only pilots I've seen train them to V are Supercarrier and Titan pilots ...


Many competitive PvP pilots also train them to V, as well as freighter and jump freighter pilots.

Those skills affect almost every armor fit I fly, increasing my buffer, as well as sustained tank.

Well worth the investment.

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.24 08:59
by Cassiel Seraphim
K950 wrote:However I would agree that we should not put a standard doctrine fit with those set up with those specific meta levels because it is kinda pushing it on the "reasonable" scale. 2mil Dark Blood Energized Thermal Membranes are reasonable though, or cheap C-Types. We must be careful because of price swings on those modules, but because the Guardian is expected to keep its fleetmates alive, I firmly believe in a reasonable level of bling to ensure that. The good thing is at least the modules in question don't cost as much as the shield modules do -- a Pithum C-Type AIF is over 300m alone, and if you wanted a C-Type EM Ward Field that sets you back a casual 55mil.
I don't see anyone pushing for the costly A-types to be used on the wiki though. I added a personal note that I still find it worthwhile, but if you re-read my post you'll see that I clearly stated that what I was suggesting was to use the readily available 5-10 mil variants and the cheaper 30 mil faction EANM. Not to continue using the more expensive A-types on the wiki-fits.

K950 wrote:There is a solid reasoning for the damage control, if you end up bleeding into structure a bit the Damage Control helps. It remains to be a doctrine choice though of either the EANM or the damage control.
It used to have a much bigger impact when the damage control alone had the hull resists, but since all hulls got a base hull resist it has lost much of the benefit. Having a bit of extra hull is nice, but not worth sacrificing a significant portion of resists in armour, as that's where the bulk of your ehp are, that's where we benefit the most from it.

K950 wrote:In other news I found ...
Scouring or scrubbing lossmails can certainly give you ideas and some insight into what people are running, but there could be a ton of reasons as to why a fit is done a certain way and why it died. For example, this could be as simple of a reason that the pilot had to use certain modules and had no CPU left, thus went with the best modules he could afford to fill the slots. Since he had no CPU, all he could do it fill it up with platings and chose the most expensive and effective ones he could find. The solution of simply throwing more ISK at a problem can work, but that doesn't mean it's a good solution, just a solution. Anyway, in general the killboards are notoriously misleading due to the lack of context provided and people do all sorts of stupid things to boot. So by all means, use it for inspiration to do further theorycrafting, but be careful drawing conclusions from it.

And +1 to what Decklin said, anyone who runs armour a lot is very likely to train those skills to IV and often V. Either way, even at a measly III those compensation skills improve all those modules by a significant amount.

Re: Guardian

PostPosted: 2018.05.24 15:20
by Narthe Raytei
Thank you to everyone who has participated and given constructive feedback towards how the guardian fits can be improved and how they should be fit for a common purpose.

The wiki and fleetup will be updated with the new fits.