Guardian

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.18 20:23

Guardian

The wiki currently is incredibly wordy and has in essence:
800mm Plate Guardians (both passive and active)
1600mm Plate Guardians (both passive and active)

It also has both expensive and cheap versions of the guardian.

There are a few arguments i'd like to propose:
    1. 800mm plates have no place in a guardian fit, you can make a 1600mm fit whilst still having t2 large reppers. Example below
    2. Having both cheap and expensive fits is pointless, the market fluctuates and faction and pirate modules aren't incredibly stable. Better to have a single t2 fit and then let the pilot getting the ship bling it to their own liking, anyone flying this ship should know how to bling. (this is also part of the wiki fitting guidance rules)
    3. The wiki should be consistent; a write up is a good idea, but the detail in this wiki should probably be on a separate page and the wiki fittings be put back to a similar way to other ships. (I'd also argue that alot of the information on this wiki page is also incorrect/outdated.)
    4. The use of Scrams on a guardian is very niche; this shouldn't be a main fit and should probably just have a note somewhere explaining their use (for anyone who doesn't know it's to disable booshing by a command dessy.)
The 800mm plate has no benefits aside from easier fitting, but even that has no benefits as the 1600 version has better ehp, similar speed, and better rep power.



There are two fits i'd recommend be placed on the wiki. The 1600mm passive and active fits.

Passive:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, Passive]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
IFFA Compact Damage Control

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Standard Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x1
ECCM Script x1

Active
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, Active]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Dark Blood Armor Thermal Hardener
Armor EM Hardener II

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Standard Mindflood Booster x1
Targeting Range Script x1
ECCM Script x1

These are the two base t2 versions that i'd recommend be placed on the wiki. The Dark Blood hardener on the active is very stable at it's price historically on the market and is on there purely for fitting reasons.
There is an argument to be made that the passive guardian shouldn't be included due to the fact that its tank will turn off under neut pressure, as well as the fact that it actually doesn't have much of an increased tank over the passive version.

You can make these much tankier by removing 2 large reps, downgrading to medium reps and sticking some trimarks in, however by doing that you lose out on the range advantage that the guardian has.
Sure you lose some EHP but by having the Large rep range you can put yourself far enough away that you will be mitigating the majority of the incoming damage. This plays to the guardian's small sig strength
(You also have much much stronger reps this way)
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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K950

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Post 2018.05.19 22:26

Re: Guardian

I should probably point out that there are two general kinds of Guardians.

One set up for wormhole space, and the other for k-space. They are fit rather differently, normally in the rigs and the high slots. They are not interchangeable. MWD Guardians are very close to k-space Guardians.
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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.19 22:43

Re: Guardian

Feel free to offer some MWD versions. If you can make an Active and Passive version that would be perfect.

EDIT: Stole a Goons fit and removed the shiney.

MWD Active
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, MWD Active]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Dark Blood Armor EM Hardener
Dark Blood Armor Thermal Hardener

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Medium Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Medium Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer
Large Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Light Hull Maintenance Bot I x5


MWD Passive
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, MWD Passive]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized EM Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Medium Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Medium Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer
Large Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Light Hull Maintenance Bot I x5


MWD's changed for reasons stated below, the sig reduction is more worthwhile.
Last edited by Narthe Raytei on 2018.05.20 17:41, edited 1 time in total.
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.05.20 16:17

Re: Guardian

A couple points.

MWD Guardians are not the default kspace fit, they're a very specific fit that you use with MWD armor Ishtars. The large majority of use cases for kspace Guardians feature 10mn fits, because they're used with battleships and AB cruisers/command ships.

Narthe's correct that 800mm plated Guardians are garbage.

You should never use an Enduring MWD for basically any PvP application. Restrained MWDs are almost as good for your cap life as the Enduring ones because of the reduced capacitor penalty, they improve your tank because of the reduced sig bloom, and they have the same fitting. It's particularly foolish to use Enduring MWDs in any kind of cap chained ship, because the only benefit of an Enduring MWD is overwhelmed by the cap transfer.
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"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.20 17:43

Re: Guardian

Adjusted the fits above.

The question then would be, in reference to MWD vs AB, whether the MWD fit is a typical use fit. If it is not then it doesn't belong on the Wiki. I can't answer this myself as i've never used an MWD fit and do not know it's full range of use situations.
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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K950

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Post 2018.05.21 02:00

Re: Guardian

The Goon fit shown above is probably a doctrine setup for a specific purpose.

We're still lacking a proper Guardian fit which can best even the old Kaboose fit Guardian.
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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.21 08:04

Re: Guardian

This is the old Kaboose fit:
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, Kaboose copy]

Damage Control II
Armor EM Hardener II
Dark Blood Armor Kinetic Hardener
Dark Blood Armor Thermal Hardener
1600mm Steel Plates II

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster

Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


It has 20k more tank, 1 ET, and less rep power (only marginally). It works, but requires absolute perfect skills due to the single ET.
The only arguments between the one i've posted above and the Kaboose fit is that Kaboose is weaker to neuting, by quite a margin. (1 Heavy neut to cap Kaboose as opposed to 3 Heavy neuts to cap the one i've posted)
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2018.05.21 12:59

Re: Guardian

Single ET is generally considered bad even if you (correctly) require Logistics Cruisers V of all logi pilots. This is because of neut pressure having become very common in even the kspace meta; if you have Logistics V on all logi, this means you can go 1-down as the normal default and then have a spare ET to throw at whoever broadcasts for cap. This was particularly crucial when citadel void bombs were a thing, but the neut bursts and double-heavy-neut Tempests are also worth considering.

The sample AB fits are questionable, though. There's no reason to minmax for maximum large remote reps. If you have a half decent logi wing the bad guys should only be able to break T1 resists on non-logi ships, regardless of whether you have 3 large reps or 2 per Guardian. (Large reps also have a longer cycle time, which means your reps land later - you want a couple mediums available per Guardian to get the first reps landing more quickly.) Since you often defeat people with a competent logi wing by killing the logi first, it's often a mistake to ditch tank for maximum outgoing reps, and 1 ACR/1 Trimark represents the default equilibrium between tank and reps.

It's therefore been standard for at least the last couple years to go 2x large rep, 2x deadspace medium, 2x large cap transfer. The following fit is a good standard; while you could compact the sensor booster and t2 the EANM, and the AB could be downgraded to Enduring, it's best to properly fit your T2 hulls and you should really never compromise mobility or tank.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, Guardian (Sniggwaffe, v3) - PvP]

Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermal Hardener
Damage Control II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Acolyte II x5


Nanite Repair Paste x100
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"To crush your enemies. To see them bubbled before you, and to hear the lamentations of their carebears."

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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.21 14:47

Re: Guardian

There is definitely a space difference then as it's very common to go 4 large reps in W-space, recently and historically.
This i'd wager is due to the fact that there are, 95% of the time, much much less pilots in a w-space fight; so alpha isn't as much of a problem and the need to have more effective reps is increased.

So the fits for the Guardian that should be posted up would be:

W-Space 4L Active
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, W-Space 4L Active]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Dark Blood Armor Thermal Hardener
Armor EM Hardener II

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100
Targeting Range Script x1
ECCM Script x1

W-Space 4L Passive
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, W-Space 4L Passive]

1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
IFFA Compact Damage Control

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100
Targeting Range Script x1
ECCM Script x1


K-Space 2M2L Active
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, K-space 2M2L Active]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermal Hardener
IFFA Compact Damage Control

10MN Afterburner II
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, ECCM Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Acolyte II x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1

K-Space 2M2L Passive
SPOILER WARNING!
[Guardian, K-Space 2M2L Passive]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Dark Blood Energized EM Membrane
Dark Blood Energized Thermal Membrane
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Acolyte II x5


Strong Mindflood Booster x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1


I removed the major bling (such as the tank) as these fits are meant to be more of a baseline common fit rather than a hard-line doctrine, and i'm not putting up the MWD version due to it's very niche use but other than that you would say that looks good?
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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K950

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Post 2018.05.21 20:43

Re: Guardian

So it is a legitimate concept to use ANPs on Guardians for w-space but if you do that it has to be triple A-Type ANPs, and nothing less. Otherwise you run a setup of plate (faction), T2 DCU or faction EANM according to doctrine, then a semi-rainbow setup of EM, Thermal and Kinetic hardeners or membranes.

Guardians need tank. They should not be fit with Tech II ANPs or Tech II Thermal Membranes.

This is a basic Snuff Box doctrine Guardian. This is not a wormhole space fit.

  Code:
[Guardian, Guardian - Armor AB 2L 2M 2C Active DCII Standard]

Centus C-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core B-Type Armor Thermal Hardener
Corpus C-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


For k-space you need as much tank as possible. You should never run double ACRs on a K-space Guardian, for any reason, neither a compact plate. If you need to cheapify it a bit, you can run faction EM and Kinetic hardeners, with the best thermal hardener you can get. Your alliance doctrine may specify either a faction (not Tech II) EANM or a Damage Control II: simply swap out as per doctrine.

Your innate thermal weakness is of some concern, but the fit above has 80.8% resists against thermal damage with some links on field, which, if you're using Guardians, you should have links. The maximum you can squeeze out of this setup, using a faction EANM and X-Type hardeners with links, HG slave set and heat is about 178k ehp or 234k ehp overloaded (will only last about 40-60 seconds though) with a 87.9 EM | 84.3 TH | 88.7 KN | 88.1 EX resistance profile, cold.

I don't want to appear rude or harsh, but if you can't afford to put a faction plate and a decent thermal hardener on your Guardian then you probably shouldn't fly it. K-space fights start out with a logi wing or two of Guardians, if more reps are required you simply drop triage.
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Conci Furiram

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Post 2018.05.21 21:06

Re: Guardian

K950 wrote:So it is a legitimate concept to use ANPs on Guardians for w-space but if you do that it has to be triple A-Type ANPs, and nothing less.

What? No. No on so many levels.
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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.21 22:17

Re: Guardian

K950 wrote:So it is a legitimate concept to use ANPs on Guardians for w-space but if you do that it has to be triple A-Type ANPs, and nothing less. Otherwise you run a setup of plate (faction), T2 DCU or faction EANM according to doctrine, then a semi-rainbow setup of EM, Thermal and Kinetic hardeners or membranes.

Guardians need tank. They should not be fit with Tech II ANPs or Tech II Thermal Membranes.

This is just wrong...

    Firstly, fitting 3 ANP's equal massive stacking penalties. Each omni-resist mod is adding a small amount of resist.
So if you use 2 ANP's and a specific (such as on the current active w-space one) you will gain a stronger resist bonus. For example if you fit an EM hardener, a thermal hardener and an omni-hardener (Adaptive Nano Plating): the EM/thermal resistances from the omni-hardener would be stacking-penalized but the Kinetic/Explosive resistances would not.

    Secondly, Bling is not required at all. It's nice to have sure, but is not required in the slightest.

    Thirdly, guardians always have a damage control, always. They require no cap for an unpenalized boost in ehp.

K950 wrote:This is a basic Snuff Box doctrine Guardian. This is not a wormhole space fit.

The fit you posted is (almost) a direct copy of the "K-Space 2M2L Active" fit i posted above. Except for the fact that you stuck 100mil worth of mods on it for 6k ehp. Which honestly is not worth it in the slightest.

K950 wrote:I don't want to appear rude or harsh, but if you can't afford to put a faction plate and a decent thermal hardener on your Guardian then you probably shouldn't fly it. K-space fights start out with a logi wing or two of Guardians, if more reps are required you simply drop triage.

Again not true, you don't need to fly blingy for the ship to be decent. Bling needs to be reasonable and actually have an impact. 100mil isk for 6k EHP is not worth it by any means whatsoever.
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K950

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Post 2018.05.21 23:44

Re: Guardian

So I think the hostility you have towards me is not conducive to a friendly discussion, and is why I have refrained from replying in other threads because of fear of this kind of atmosphere. Meanwhile terrible fits like this...

  Code:
[Scimitar, MWD Self Rep]

Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Amplifier II
Sensor Booster II, ECCM Script

Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II


Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x1
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot II x4


Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1
Navy Cap Booster 400 x36


... continue to reign unopposed because nobody likes linking their top tier fits or they are not a party to this discussion. Both are fair and valid reasons, and others are very specialized concepts that are not for general purpose operations or for unskilled pilots (best example of this is the 100MN local tank Scimitar).

I think we may be acting unreasonably harsh in this discussion and we need to settle down a bit to a more civilized fashion.


Moving on back to the Guardian:

Firstly, fitting 3 ANP's equal massive stacking penalties. Each omni-resist mod is adding a small amount of resist.


This is actually an interesting concept that I dug out of a higher-tier wormhole corp. They had multiple losses with the same concept and if you looked at it, it actually does have some validity. Plug it into Pyfa and check. I'm not sure if I would use it myself, unless it was doctrine, but it does actually have some substance to it. Maybe someone had an overabundance of A-Type ANPs from market orders? I don't know.

Secondly, Bling is not required at all. It's nice to have sure, but is not required in the slightest.

Thirdly, guardians always have a damage control, always. They require no cap for an unpenalized boost in ehp.


Perhaps we should back up a bit. Are we trying to reinvent the brick? Here are some major alliance Guardian losses:

Hard Knocks
Snuffed Out
Pandemic Legion
Initiative.

  • Hard Knocks appears to be using 1600mm plate, A-Type ANP and deadspace EM, Thermal and Kinetic hardeners for their mainline doctrine.
  • Snuffed Out appears to be using a 1600mm plate, Damage Control II and deadspace, EM, Thermal and Kinetic hardeners.
  • Pandemic Legion appears to be using a 1600mm plate, Imperial Navy EANM and deadspace EM, Thermal and Kinetic hardeners.
  • The Initiative. uses a double trimark fit with a compact plate, ENAM, passive C-Type EM hardener, and faction Thermal and Kinetic hardeners.

Those are just a few of the higher-level alliance doctrines. It's not exhaustive, but it gives you an idea of what they use. Most higher tier alliances have fitting nerds too and they have to get the best to stay the best. Why do we need to try to re-do their work? (Here is the old Kaboose fit Guardian, for reference. It's not the same as shown earlier.)

Granted, if you're using your Guardian in a last hope, all or nothing strike, there should be some expectation of elevated meta levels because the stakes are higher.

I should also point out that faction EANMs, usually Imperial Navy models, yield more effective EHP than the damage control does. As shown above it is standard for some alliances to fit them that way. This is not my idea, it's a concept from folks who also study these particulars closely and have chosen to go that way.

When a fight develops to the point where logistics repairs are strong enough to tank the hostile DPS effectively, the hostile FC is often forced to start focusing on logistics. When this happens, the tank of your Guardians tends to determine the outcome of the fight. So with rash statements indicating that tank is mostly a trivial matter, I suppose I have nothing further to point to, other than your Guardian fit concepts are going along a path that no other major higher tier corporation seems to run, and that is saying something.
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Narthe Raytei

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Post 2018.05.22 00:44

Re: Guardian

A few things.

Firstly why are you bringing a Scimitar fit into a Guardian thread? Why are you saying it's terrible without saying why? Take the negative feedback, put it into the correct thread and make it constructive.

Secondly, this "higher-tier wormhole" corp you mention who is it? Where are these killmails you're on about? I'd like to see exactly what you're talking about so this can be a useful discussion point.

And finally, these fits that are "totally different" to the ones I'm proposing are almost exactly the same fits as you're linking, just deblinged.
The Snuff fit is the same as the k-space one I've proposed, except that instead of a kinetic hardener I've put in an EANM.
The HK fit is the same as the w-space one except that instead of a kinetic hardener i've put in a second ANP.
The PL fit is exactly the same fit as the K-space one.
Initiative, sure a slightly different variation with more tank and less rep.

Also just to point out, the Kaboose fit you've linked is EXACTLY the same as the one i put, just with removed bling.

I never said
K950 wrote:tank is mostly a trivial matter

I said that excessive bling is a waste of money.

K950 wrote:So I think the hostility you have towards me is not conducive to a friendly discussion, and is why I have refrained from replying in other threads because of fear of this kind of atmosphere.


As has been pointed out in past threads, what you consider "hostility", others consider "criticism" and "feedback". You create "this kind of atmosphere" with your own words. Specifically, do not claim an air of authority in an area you're inexperienced and be surprised when you receive a neck-wringed reaction.
"The music does not play the musician." Daniel Jackson - Stargate SG1

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K950

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Post 2018.05.22 01:38

Re: Guardian

I didn't want to comment too much on the Scimitar because the topic of this thread isn't the Scimitar, but we can make occasional references to other subjects in a minor fashion to refer to certain topics. The Scimitar shown is decisively poor because the CPRs interfere with the ASB, because solo Scimitars are for small gang situations, and small gang Scimitars are usually blinged out for the most effectiveness and run a different setup than that one does.

I forgot who the higher-tier wormhole corp Guardian belong to that had triple A-Type ANPs for tank. I should have saved it in my library, but neglected to because I felt that without some reasoning into why it was fit that way, I didn't want to endorse it. The principle reason I brought it up was because without A-Type ANPs you cannot run ANPs on a Tech II, Tech III or pirate faction setup and obtain an acceptable level of tank over faction EANMs. Some ships explicitly require them to actually function correctly - for a Guardian, most recommend it if you run an ANP or two.

It is also generally expected that most ships involved in w-space brawls will be blinged to a fairly respectable level because each ship is expected to perform at its peak efficiency. K-Space doctrine ships vary of course, partially because of the scope of the engagement -- if I was bringing a Guardian to a Mach versus Mach fleet mine wouldn't be that blingy because 70 Machs don't really care what tank level you have.

The original Kaboose fit specifies a 10MN Afterburner II, a faction EM hardener (which requires less paste to repair), different meta levels of the medium reppers and a T1 (maybe it was more expensive back then to run T2) trimark armor pump. It cannot be called exactly the same if the meta levels are different in that fashion: that said, Dark Blood and True Sansha armor hardeners have the same stats, so that would be equivalent the same.

Excessive bling on a Guardian would be: full X-Type reppers, A-Type medium reppers, faction plate and a deadspace afterburner, all together, which probably won't fit. X-Type hardeners, depending on when and where you get them, are actually not that bad -- but I would concur that we shouldn't have that set up on the Wiki because it's not something that is easily acquired in larger numbers. But much like putting cheap tires or bargain-bottom paint on a nice automobile is considered wrong by many people, experienced players generally agree that a modest amount of bling on a Guardian is respectable. In fact, expected in some cases, such as the C-Type medium remotes, which Raido states as well.

Just like A-Type AIFs, CONCORD shield extenders and X-Type hardeners are expected on shield supers and titans, good players expect Guardians to have faction plates, and we should have good fits up on the wiki to meet those expectations, especially for the w-space fits.

The responses such as "This is just wrong..." and "Which honestly is not worth it in the slightest..." and "100mil isk for 6k EHP is not worth it by any means whatsoever" are the kind of feedback that indicate to me that my input is void, when I base my suggestions for these fits off competent alliance doctrines and literally copy right off them.
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