Griffin

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Biwako Acami

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Post 2017.06.27 18:28

Griffin

Last of the T1 EWAR ships and possibly the most liked/disliked depending on which end of the jams you are.

Wiki Fitting
  Code:
[Griffin, Fleet T1 Range]

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM

'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Ionic Field Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I


Hobgoblin I x1


Because the ship boasts a large number of mid slots it tends to be used for a lot of things besides jams so the kill history on this ship varies quite significantly.

The most common fit seen on zkillboard is unsurprisingly similar to the wiki fit. The only noticeable difference is the use of an extra Small Particle Dispersion Projector I instead of Small Ionic Field Projector I. Once an Alpha clone trains Long Range Targeting to Level 3 (from Level 1) targeting range exceeds the ECM Optimal + Falloff. ECM ranges start to exceed targeting range once a clone trains into Omega skills Long Distance Jamming for Optimal range and Frequency Modulation for Falloff range increases.

I don't see what else we can endorse for a Griffin.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.06.28 01:26

Re: Griffin

Looking into existing fitting, I think the Griffin: Solitude - Crowbar Griffin is the best one. Autotargeting systems help in case if you jammed by another ewar.

The thing I would add is put into cargo mobile depot and 3 types of all other jam-modules for each race in case if you want to reship either in space during the fleet or at the station.

Would you mind please publishing that fit into Wiki doctrine and update page, Biwako?
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White 0rchid

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Post 2017.06.30 11:59

Re: Griffin

Pretty similar to my fit. Mine is just T2 fit (probably better to post the T2 fit?) and it uses an enduring mwd. It also doesn't fit the ionic. That's all skill dependent. If you have max skills, your targeting is ok I think. With lower skills, you might do better with an ionic.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Standard Fleet]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

Radar ECM II
Magnetometric ECM II
Ladar ECM II
Gravimetric ECM II
5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

Auto Targeting System I
[Empty High slot]

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I


Acolyte II x1
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2017.07.07 16:20

Re: Griffin

I see only 41 losses out of 1997 that have auto targeting system (~0.02%)

Does being able to auto lock the nearest target after getting out of EWAR get useful on a griffin? I imagine the biggest benefit is extra active targets so you can be a bit more flexible with the switches.

T1 vs T2 Comparison:
  • Cost: 1.75m vs 11.5m (+9.75m)
  • Strongest Jam: 9.12 vs 9.95 (+0.83)
  • Other Jams: 3.04 vs 3.32 (+0.28)
  • Optimal Range: 54.6km vs 66.1km (+11.5km)
  • Falloff Range: 44.5km vs 48.6km (+4.1km)*
* In the T2 fit suggested we only get the increased optimal because targeting range stays at 81.3km and drops off before falloff for the ECM modules.

Edit: Forgot to mention my point of T1 vs T2 comparison. 30% of losses have T2 modules so we probably want to at least include both since the T1 works well for low skill players and the T2 fit might be useful for high skill players.

I see two downsides to the T2;
  • Cost: Cost gets close to a basic blackbird (about 17m) for slight increases in jam strength on an already RNG heavy system.
  • Gains: If the target has sensor strength at 10 points there's still that 0.5% chance leftover for jams to fail. Whereas if the target's hull has inherently high sensor strength the gains only amount to between 4-5% increased chance.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.07.09 01:09

Re: Griffin

Biwako wrote:Does being able to auto lock the nearest target after getting out of EWAR get useful on a griffin?

Once I died in Griffin, and the last thing I remember is that I locked 4 drones :)
So that was cool, but did not help :)
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.08.26 04:33

Re: Griffin

Posted meta and T2
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Yuri Levnik

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Post 2017.08.27 18:22

Griffin

Howdy all!
I'm starting my job in the fittings department with the noble Griffin. Current Wiki fits are OK for fleet ops, though I question the inclusion of rocket launchers. The tank on these boats is non-existant, so warping out should be a priority over trying to shoot down drones.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Standard Fleet]
OE-5200 Rocket Launcher
OE-5200 Rocket Launcher

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM

'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Ionic Field Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Hobgoblin I x1

SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Standard Fleet, T2]
Auto Targeting System I
Rocket Launcher II

Radar ECM II
Magnetometric ECM II
Ladar ECM II
Gravimetric ECM II
5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Acolyte II x1

HSC has Griffins in their campus defense initiative. No weapons, newbro friendly, includes the option to switch from rainbow to race-specific ECM. It also has a restrained MWD which lowers sig radius at a very small penalty to cap life. I prefer this fit over the current wiki fits, though I might add a pair of Auto Targeting System I in the highs.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, HSC CDI Griffin]

'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Warrior I x1

1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner x1
Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM x3
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM x3
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM x3
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM x3

Modified to include Auto Targeting System I and drop the afterburner from the hold.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Rainbow ECM Grifin]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Auto Targeting System I
Auto Targeting System I

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Hobgoblin I x1

Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM x3
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM x3
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM x3
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM x3

I also spun up a picket fit that can be used to try to crowbar a fleetmate loose in a pinch. Note that the core probe launcher can be kept offline if CPU is an issue, or omitted altogether if there's no need scan for wormholes.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Picket Griffin]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM

Core Probe Launcher I
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Warrior I x1

Core Scanner Probe I x8

You can try an armor tank like is commonly used on Blackbirds, but I wouldn't recommend it. ECM strength drops and you still end up being very fragile.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Armor Tank Griffin]
200mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
BZ-5 Scoped Gravimetric ECM
Enfeebling Scoped Ladar ECM
Hypnos Scoped Magnetometric ECM
Umbra Scoped Radar ECM

Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Warrior I x1

Combing Zkillboard, I found a number of multispectral fits. I'm not convinced they'd be any better than rainbow fits, though they do have better cap life.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Multispectral Griffin]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Small Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery


Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Hobgoblin I x1

Getting really into the weeds, here's a gimmicky "tackle griffin" with hull tank and a nosferatu.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Griffin, Tackle Nosferatu Griffin]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Compulsive Scoped Multispectral ECM
Faint Epsilon Scoped Warp Scrambler

Small Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu

Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

Hobgoblin I x1

Overall, I like the modified HSC fit, my picket fit and the first multispectral fit. I don't think we really need to post T2 fits - Griffins are throwaway boats, though richbros can T2 them if they like.

Yuri
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"He's like a shark; a shark doesn't eat you because he hates you. He eats you because he's hungry and you're there." - Elihugh Beecher
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.08.31 22:44

Re: Griffin

I believe Yuri did not see the original topic on Griffin and made his proposal. I've merged topics.

Regarding HSC fits in general.

With all my respect to HSC mission and some HSC members, to what they do for the game and newbros, I'm convinced they are really weak PvPers. And even though many veterans put lots of efforts into helping them to build solid fits, that in general is far from being an example of good fits/doctrines.

HSC CDI Griffin
This one is pretty much the same as posted. I agree about useless AB in fit. Cap is a bigger concern than signature size. So in general, I would say Enduring is better than Restrained. Griffin should stay out of range and if locked should warp away immediately. Especially if piloted by a newbro. Experienced pilot can think of doing something cool like overheating jammers and jamming a tackle, but often that's too risky.
I agree it makes sense to add racial jam modules into cargo for refit purpose if you know whom you are fighting.

Picket fit
I'm not in favor posting picket fit: it is specific for the use case and I'm not convinced picketing is the best in a jamming ship. The goal of picket is to warn people, not save them from the danger. Also if you consider picketing for Incursion fleet: Incursion ships are usually Battleships and they will be hunted by T2/T3 cruisers. What can 1 Griffin do to them? Just die.

Armor tank fit
Griffin does not need tank (see above) Better to have jam-strenght, lock speed, agility, and target range instead a bit higher EHP.

Multispectral fit
Multispectral fit is essentially natural refit for published 'standard fleet' fits.

Tackle fit
My original thoughts were: due to very low tank, I would not use Griffin for tackle. In fleet you can have much better tackles, solo you just die. And if you want to tackle indeed you should only do this solo and use Griffin NI.

But, after doing some match, OH T2 racial jam can pretty much 100% jam almost any frigate... This assumes all L5 skills and depends on using additional modules to boost jammers strength, but with 2-3 jammers you have VERY high chances of jamming the opponent.

Obvious problems here are a denial of content: people won't let you tackle them at all and run away as soon as they see Griffin on short D-scan... What sort of tackle would it be if everybody would just run away from it? At the same time, I was successful killing Griffon NI in a small gang format, so using Griffin as tackle, and maybe even as a solo PvP ship is an option? But maybe that is not something which E-Uni should teach and recommend on the Wiki?

Thoughts?
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Yuri Levnik

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Post 2017.09.01 05:36

Re: Griffin

Howdy Budda,
All good points - there's not really much else to say. I think the only changes I'd make to the posted fits are to remove the rocket launchers and put auto targeters in their place and add the extra rainbow jams to their holds.

I think posting the multispectral fit might also be a good choice. It has better cap life than the rainbow fit, though I'm not convinced it's any better otherwise.

The picket fit is intended to be used as an emergency crowbar to break enemy tackle. It only works when one of your fleetmates is in an expensive ship and they either get tackled by a dangerous solo enemy or attacked by a fleet that only has one or two tackle boats (e.g. a sniper fleet with a Keres or similar long range tackler). The Griffin can attempt to jam the tackler and crowbar the more expensive ship free, preventing a high value kill. It won't always work, but Griffins are cheap so even if the Griffin dies it's a small loss. Some fleets have special jobs they need from their pickets, e.g. combat prober or hacker, but if the picket doesn't have a special job I think a Griffin is the best choice. Happy to be proven wrong, of course!
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"He's like a shark; a shark doesn't eat you because he hates you. He eats you because he's hungry and you're there." - Elihugh Beecher
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.09.04 23:48

Re: Griffin

Yuri Levnik wrote:Howdy Budda,
All good points - there's not really much else to say. I think the only changes I'd make to the posted fits are to remove the rocket launchers and put auto targeters in their place and add the extra rainbow jams to their holds.

I think posting the multispectral fit might also be a good choice. It has better cap life than the rainbow fit, though I'm not convinced it's any better otherwise.

The picket fit is intended to be used as an emergency crowbar to break enemy tackle. It only works when one of your fleetmates is in an expensive ship and they either get tackled by a dangerous solo enemy or attacked by a fleet that only has one or two tackle boats (e.g. a sniper fleet with a Keres or similar long range tackler). The Griffin can attempt to jam the tackler and crowbar the more expensive ship free, preventing a high value kill. It won't always work, but Griffins are cheap so even if the Griffin dies it's a small loss. Some fleets have special jobs they need from their pickets, e.g. combat prober or hacker, but if the picket doesn't have a special job I think a Griffin is the best choice. Happy to be proven wrong, of course!

I do believe rainbow fit is better: i've been in fleet and Griffin has either 1 target (so rainbow is better) or many targets to chose and rainbow is better again as usually, you can pick proper module against specific hulls. Same if you will try to release your friend from being tackled.

I still not convinced to post picketing fit: it is very specialized. Same 'standard fleet' fit will work for this role, and cloak could be good or could be compensated by orbiting gate at 1000km.

I will archive this for now unless get other points.
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White 0rchid

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Post 2017.09.05 06:47

Re: Griffin

KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

It's far easier for people to understand a select few, highly optimised fits than it is try and come up with a fit for every scenario. The griffin just doesn't work here.

Have you seen the penalties for fitting a cloak?

Scan res is halved, sensor recalibration to 30 seconds (you can't lock anything for 30 seconds after you decloak). There is no situation I can see that fit being useful.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.09.10 19:44

Re: Griffin

Thanks!

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