Fits Role discussion
- Neonen Enderas (Biomassed 2017.06.23)
- Member
- Posts: 762
- Joined: 2014.11.25 13:22
- Location: Atm .. cold cold east Germany. :/
Fits Role discussion
As we had the question a few times already:
How many roles do exist, what kind of roles do exist? How do we define the roles?
So you can just use the poll in this thread and help us figuring out what roles we want to use later on. If you vote, please give a short description on what you think is a good definition for said role.
Let me start with:
Light Tackle
A ship that can establish first tackle, usually by keeping the enemy at range with a warp disruptor or two. Ideally it has some kind of bonus to tackling range and a decent sensor resolution.
Heavy Tackle
A ship without any bonus to disruptors/scrams but maybe a webbing bonus. But the biggest benefit is an enourmous tank to keep the target from moving around while the backup arrives or simply to keep it from moving while the rest around the main target gets blown up.
Kiter
Fast, agile, but usually lower tank (and probably not bigger than a cruiser), they just keep the enemy pointed while they chip away their tank.
Brawler
Like the heavy tackle, this role goes close and personal with their target. But they also fulfill the role of a damage dealer.
Alpha boat
Something like a Tornado, extremly high alpha but terrible tank.
Logistics
You rep stuff.. Mostly. Wouldn't count RR set-ups as logistics.
Exploarion
Well, you explore things.
Combat Exploration
Like exploration, but combat ready. You uhm.. explore wrecks I guess?
Hauler
Yes, a hauler exists and at some point we will have to talk about how to fit your freighter.... I fear that day.
Miner?
It is a role.. I suppose...
PvE and PvP
Kinda obvious, no?
Not sure if you can edit a poll after it's being set up, but I simply hope it is. If you have other roles that I missed or want to add to the description, please do so.
How many roles do exist, what kind of roles do exist? How do we define the roles?
So you can just use the poll in this thread and help us figuring out what roles we want to use later on. If you vote, please give a short description on what you think is a good definition for said role.
Let me start with:
Light Tackle
A ship that can establish first tackle, usually by keeping the enemy at range with a warp disruptor or two. Ideally it has some kind of bonus to tackling range and a decent sensor resolution.
Heavy Tackle
A ship without any bonus to disruptors/scrams but maybe a webbing bonus. But the biggest benefit is an enourmous tank to keep the target from moving around while the backup arrives or simply to keep it from moving while the rest around the main target gets blown up.
Kiter
Fast, agile, but usually lower tank (and probably not bigger than a cruiser), they just keep the enemy pointed while they chip away their tank.
Brawler
Like the heavy tackle, this role goes close and personal with their target. But they also fulfill the role of a damage dealer.
Alpha boat
Something like a Tornado, extremly high alpha but terrible tank.
Logistics
You rep stuff.. Mostly. Wouldn't count RR set-ups as logistics.
Exploarion
Well, you explore things.
Combat Exploration
Like exploration, but combat ready. You uhm.. explore wrecks I guess?
Hauler
Yes, a hauler exists and at some point we will have to talk about how to fit your freighter.... I fear that day.
Miner?
It is a role.. I suppose...
PvE and PvP
Kinda obvious, no?
Not sure if you can edit a poll after it's being set up, but I simply hope it is. If you have other roles that I missed or want to add to the description, please do so.
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Did someone say "Stealthbomber"? Explosions? And ECM? I'm in! Let's blow shit up! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
- Decklin Quark Reiger
- Member
- Posts: 508
- Joined: 2016.04.21 16:24
- Title: LSC Combat Officer, Fittings staff, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Graduate
- Kyle Hargrove
- Member
- Posts: 489
- Joined: 2013.11.27 13:23
Re: Role discussion
Suggesting yet another category: "force multiplier"/"support", for ships such as Recons, EWAR frigs, and similar.
As for definitions, I'll just put here those for which I do not agree with the definitions you give:
Heavy Tackle
A ship that has, as its primary role, that of preventing targets from escaping while being able to field a strong tank, in order to sustain damage for a longer time while backup arrives. Usually has bonuses on point/scram range or web strength/range. Example ships: Vigilant, Proteus, Lachesis, Arazu, Vindicator.
Alpha Boat
Consider replacing with "sniper".
Combat Exploration
A ship able to efficiently using scanner probes, while maintaining a role in combat. Usually coupled with a second archetype. Examples: Stratios (Heavy Tackle), Astero/Helios (Light Tackle), Proteus (Brawler/Heavy Tackle), Tengu (Hunter-Killer/Heavy Tackle).
As for definitions, I'll just put here those for which I do not agree with the definitions you give:
Heavy Tackle
A ship that has, as its primary role, that of preventing targets from escaping while being able to field a strong tank, in order to sustain damage for a longer time while backup arrives. Usually has bonuses on point/scram range or web strength/range. Example ships: Vigilant, Proteus, Lachesis, Arazu, Vindicator.
Alpha Boat
Consider replacing with "sniper".
Combat Exploration
A ship able to efficiently using scanner probes, while maintaining a role in combat. Usually coupled with a second archetype. Examples: Stratios (Heavy Tackle), Astero/Helios (Light Tackle), Proteus (Brawler/Heavy Tackle), Tengu (Hunter-Killer/Heavy Tackle).
- Budda Sereda
- Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: 2016.01.20 02:45
- Title: Manager (Fittings), Mentor, Lieutenant, Graduate, Management
Re: Role discussion
I'm wondering what would be value of this classification at all? I guess there are TOO many combinations and roles...
For instance, few more:
- something I name as "Sniper" - absolute glass-cannon has literally 0 tanking modules, majority of low power modules dedicated to increase DPS, middle power - range; the rest increase sensor scan. Could be useful in this type of engagements: https://wiki.agony-unleashed.com/index. ... ers_in_PvP
- Basing ships; I guess same VNI could be used, but he is kind of expensive for bashing while Vexor would work also well enough
- PvE and PvP - are WAY TOO broad, there are many sub-categories: passive shield tank (based on power shield relays and purge rigs; useful for soloing C3), active shield, active armor, buffer shield, buffer armor.
In fact, same ship (Gila, for instance) can be fit for 3-4 different roles. We can put a goal to standardize roles and pick best ships/fits for these roles... though I can't imagine amount of work required for this. At the same time, I'm doing something similar to myself (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 2145718699) but I'm focused on very few 'doctrines' and afraid that is something like "always work in progress".
For instance, few more:
- something I name as "Sniper" - absolute glass-cannon has literally 0 tanking modules, majority of low power modules dedicated to increase DPS, middle power - range; the rest increase sensor scan. Could be useful in this type of engagements: https://wiki.agony-unleashed.com/index. ... ers_in_PvP
- Basing ships; I guess same VNI could be used, but he is kind of expensive for bashing while Vexor would work also well enough
- PvE and PvP - are WAY TOO broad, there are many sub-categories: passive shield tank (based on power shield relays and purge rigs; useful for soloing C3), active shield, active armor, buffer shield, buffer armor.
In fact, same ship (Gila, for instance) can be fit for 3-4 different roles. We can put a goal to standardize roles and pick best ships/fits for these roles... though I can't imagine amount of work required for this. At the same time, I'm doing something similar to myself (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 2145718699) but I'm focused on very few 'doctrines' and afraid that is something like "always work in progress".
Fweddit is recruiting: https://j4lp.space/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&p=1086
My FC career: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/User:Budda_Sereda
My FC career: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/User:Budda_Sereda
- Kerodan Alduin
- Member
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 2013.05.11 17:14
- Title: Fittings staff, Graduate
- Location: J211926
Re: Role discussion
Would it make sense to organize roles in a more hierarchical manner?
For instance:
PvP->Tackle->Heavy Tackle
PvP->Logistics->Armor logistics->Cap chain logi (or ...Cap chain logi->Armor logistics)
Of course, some classifications may be controversial. For instance, I would argue that Combat exploration goes under PvP (maybe rename to Hunter) while Hacking/Archeology explorers go into into some kind of "Profession" role together with miners and haulers. Logi may exist twice, both under the PvP and PvE heading, though the fits would differ anyway.
If there is interest in this concept, I would take the time and try to classify all roles in such a manner so that we can discuss further.
For instance:
PvP->Tackle->Heavy Tackle
PvP->Logistics->Armor logistics->Cap chain logi (or ...Cap chain logi->Armor logistics)
Of course, some classifications may be controversial. For instance, I would argue that Combat exploration goes under PvP (maybe rename to Hunter) while Hacking/Archeology explorers go into into some kind of "Profession" role together with miners and haulers. Logi may exist twice, both under the PvP and PvE heading, though the fits would differ anyway.
If there is interest in this concept, I would take the time and try to classify all roles in such a manner so that we can discuss further.
- Budda Sereda
- Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: 2016.01.20 02:45
- Title: Manager (Fittings), Mentor, Lieutenant, Graduate, Management
Re: Role discussion
Again, what would be a value in this classification?
And let's be realistic, we can't finish fitting updates for more than a month for even 1 ship... are we able to spend a month debating on roles? I think we better finish fits polishing.
And let's be realistic, we can't finish fitting updates for more than a month for even 1 ship... are we able to spend a month debating on roles? I think we better finish fits polishing.
Fweddit is recruiting: https://j4lp.space/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&p=1086
My FC career: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/User:Budda_Sereda
My FC career: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/User:Budda_Sereda
- Kerodan Alduin
- Member
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 2013.05.11 17:14
- Title: Fittings staff, Graduate
- Location: J211926
Re: Role discussion
IMO classification simplifies the understanding what a ship can be used for. This is meant for inexperienced players to give them a rough overview what a specific hull may be good for or what a specific fit can and can not achieve. How would a new player chose what ship to bring to a kitchen sink fleet? We wouldn't want them to turn up in a PvE fit, would we? If the FC announces that they need more tacklers, someone could go and look up what tacklers match their training, etc.Budda Sereda wrote:Again, what would be a value in this classification?
For that reason I actually think that some kind of classification should be integral to our fitting examples. An alternative (or addition?) would be to make a dedicated theoretical Wiki page on roles similar to our Incursion fitting principles.
- Titus Tallang
- Retired Director
- Posts: 2485
- Joined: 2013.01.21 15:28
- Title: Director of Special Projects, Teacher, Puella Magi
Re: Role discussion
Currently I'm using what I'd call "loose classification" - I put something that describes the fit's application area there, and try to restrain myself to similar/identical phrases across multiple fits, but if something doesn't fit the existing boxes I'll just create a new label for it.
*creak*
- NotA Witch
- Member
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 2016.04.27 22:02
- Title: Lieutenant Junior Grade, Fittings staff, Graduate
Re: Fits Role discussion
To Budda's previous points what would the benefit of classifications be? If we really got down to the nitty-gritty there would probably be a LOT of classifications. So are we going to have them because we think each doctrine should have one of each? It may be better just to make a collections of proper fits and then just include more info in the tips on how to fly in a fitting wiki/fleet-up entry.
Am I missing something obvious for what we would use clearly defined roles for?
Am I missing something obvious for what we would use clearly defined roles for?
- Neonen Enderas (Biomassed 2017.06.23)
- Member
- Posts: 762
- Joined: 2014.11.25 13:22
- Location: Atm .. cold cold east Germany. :/
Re: Fits Role discussion
I made this one because we had a neverending talk about what roles there are. Luckily that died down.
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Did someone say "Stealthbomber"? Explosions? And ECM? I'm in! Let's blow shit up! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ