Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

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Tald Kholin

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Post 2016.07.05 20:22

Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Hello!

I've been with the Uni for a bit and have been having a blast. Looking at my long term goals, I'd like to get into capitals when I leave the Uni, starting with dreads and moving into carriers. They're a long train so I would like to get started sooner rather than later.

However, Googling stuff online presents a whackton of variety with a lot of old stuff, and I'm too unfamiliar with caps to tell what's relevant after the Citadel changes. So what's your opinion?

What can you do with capitals that makes it worth the while? I'm mostly into the idea of hot dropping with some profitable ratting on the side. But how applicable is hotdropping in a dread? A carrier? (As an aside, are there any corporations geared towards this that I should know of?) And which racial is the best to train for, most importantly? And for PvE, are there special considerations to keep in mind? How profitable can it be?

As well, are there any things that capsuleers don't usually consider/know of before training into capitals?

I'd greatly appreciate if someone can point me to some good up-to-date guides, and any/all thoughts on the matter. Thanks!
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Rashar Arji

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Post 2016.07.06 11:14

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Firstly, I wouldn't do it on my main. Not yet at least and I'm at ~75M SP. I've got 3 dedicated capital alts instead. Because just like you say it's a long train and I didn't want to lock my main into that. At least not just yet.

Secondly, it depends a lot of where(what type of space) you decide to go to.

Not sure how much you know but caps changed quit a lot recently so a lot of what you may have read may be out dated. Basically we've got three types;
- Dreads, high DPS gunboats(or missile in the Phoenix's case)
- Carriers, high DPS drone boats. Their DPS is significantly lower than dreads, but they don't have to siege/triage and can thus recieve remote assistance from friendly logistics ships.
- Force Auxiliary, these are the new logistics capitals and bring a lot of reps to the field but have to triage in order to do so.

What can you do with capitals that makes it worth the while?

Blow people up with tremendous amounts of firepower, or rep your friends so well that people will primary you because if you don't die they won't kill stuff.

Ratting with dreads(since you mentioned this is what you want to train into first) isn't super profitable afaik, unless you're in a high class wormhole and you don't want to be there alone. Carriers should still work? I don't know really, since I don't do much ratting.

(As an aside, are there any corporations geared towards this that I should know of?)

TMK pretty much most high end pvp corps use caps to some degree. Some more than others. In high class w-space they're pretty much mandatory.

So, to get the rest of the questions answered you kind of have to decide where you want to go next. From what I can tell caps in low/null function pretty much the same but in w-space it's an entirely different thing due to the limitations of wormholes.

As well, are there any things that capsuleers don't usually consider/know of before training into capitals?

There are a lot of skills that aren't super obvious, however if you read the skill threads in this subsection of the forum you'll see skill plans provided by Titus Tallang and they covered most if not all of the skills you'll need in a cap.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2016.07.06 12:14

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Rashar Arji wrote:I don't know really, since I don't do much ratting.


Always include a lie when telling the truth!

In the past people would suggest getting a carrier alt first to help move stuff around, known as a suitcase carrier, now that Dreads have the same sized Fleet Hanger and Ship Maintenance Bay there's no reason to do so.

I'd suggest thinking about where you want to live after your time in the Uni, a Dread will most likely be of more immediate use as they are employed in greater numbers than carriers or fax meaning you're more likely to get to use it. If you enjoy repping people then by all means focus an alt on that instead, carrier game play is a bit tricky to learn without using one however it does also open up options for ratting in Null or missions (Level 5's) in Low Sec.

Your choice of capital is now very much up to you and what you like to fly, as Rashar said have a look at Titus' skill plans and see what peaks your interest, end of the day they'll all be of some use at some point so you may as well go for one you'll enjoy flying.
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Intana Kreis

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Post 2016.07.06 14:01

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Tald Kholin wrote:However, Googling stuff online presents a whackton of variety with a lot of old stuff, and I'm too unfamiliar with caps to tell what's relevant after the Citadel changes. So what's your opinion?

What can you do with capitals that makes it worth the while? I'm mostly into the idea of hot dropping with some profitable ratting on the side. But how applicable is hotdropping in a dread? A carrier? (As an aside, are there any corporations geared towards this that I should know of?)


The best thing you could do is find the corp. first and then train into caps later based on what they do, otherwise you are trying to gauge what activities you might find most fun very indirectly at best.

In general you are better off training caps on an alt - though I know a few people who trained carriers (now fauxes) on their main because they were really into logistics. In wormhole space, it can make sense to be able to fly a dread on your main, as you generally don't need a ton of jump skills, and you will already have your weapon supports maxxed on your main.

As for applicability I think the picture is still emerging, I think some smaller scale fights in k-space are starting to prefer carriers over dreads for DPS. Fauxes are seeing a reasonable amount of use in all their flavours, with dreads seeing some use (moros use is down, revs are seeing a small uptick, nags steady, and phoenixes up).
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Swguru

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Post 2016.07.06 19:17

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

+1 to the advice on getting a capital on an alt. If the train up to advanced spaceship command V doesn't bore you to tears, training the jump skills will. While I am by no means a ratter, people do use carriers to run anomalies in nullsec. Whether or not they are significantly better than a Rattlesnake I couldn't tell you. Dreads are hot garbage due to siege. You are committed to the site for an entire cycle, even if all the rats are dead. And you are essentially self tackled for a roaming gang to kill you.

As far as PvP is concerned, carriers will see use against subcapital gangs now, however dreads are still excellent at killing supercaps in a cost efficient manner. Between insurance and the relative ease of replacement, dropping dreads happens and will continue to happen. Dreads make fairly quick work of POSs as well, tanking an unmanned POS is no problem, and often times one can coast out of siege to receive reps against a couple of gunners as well. Although supercaps with long range fighters can hit a POS now so YMMV.

Except for certain dread ops, FAX machines are essential to the survival of cap/supercaps and useful as support to BS fleets as well. Now that remote reps on supercarriers are no longer a thing, a super fleet can only tank for as long as the FAXes stay alive.

Which one is right for you? Depends what you are going to do. If all you are doing is hunting supers moving solo thru Aridia/Derelik, a FAX probably won't see much use :P
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Tald Kholin

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Post 2016.07.07 17:09

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Thanks everyone for the feedback! The tip on using a capital alt is one I'm particularly glad was brought up. It does take a long while to train them up and dedicating my main to that skill queue is something that I was hesitant about.

I typically enjoy the drone-boat playstyle, which is why I was leaning towards carriers. But I'm still conflicted, given how dreads have a shorter training queue and may see more play in PvP hotdrops than carriers. Swguru made a good point on siege mode in ratting is basically self-tackle, which is something that isn't appealing - but that's fine as PvP was something I was gravitating more towards anyways, but the versatility of PvP and ratting in a carrier...

You're all right. I don't think I'll find an answer until I have more experience with them, probably with the corp I choose to join after E-Uni. As such, I think I'll start a capital alt's training queue based on the more basic stuff and wait on the racial/capital skillbooks until later on.

As an aside, any thoughts on the Thanatos and the Phoenix for PvP post-Citadel? They were the ships I was looking at the most for flying.
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Titus Tallang

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Post 2016.07.07 17:37

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Self-tackle is just as relevant for PvP. 5 minutes is a long time to be sitting out there in a fairly shiny toy, from first-hand experience. Pretty sure I lost at least one dread to some of the dudes posting above me because I was stuck in siege and couldn't run :P

Also, guess I'll be the one to go against the grain and say that I have three carriers to 5 (cal/gal/am), perfect triage and near-perfect (currently wip post-citadel) fighter skills on my main. My alt is a perfect dread pilot though, so it's not an either/or thing - the only overlap between carriers/fax and dreads is jump skills and the capital ships skill.
The former isn't needed for wspace (I have JDC5 anyway, but eh), and the latter is a short train in the larger picture. Training for caps also makes you pick up lots of really solid subcap skills along the way - if you can fly FAX you can fly nigh-perfect subcap logi, T2 if you have racial cruiser 5. At the same time training dreads gives you near-perfect gun skills, especially supports - ditto for carriers and drones. So it's definitely not a "this is wasted training" thing, though it's a significant commitment.

Also, things that lot of people seem to neglect about caps? You need a second account alt to move them around safely solo. Getting gates unsupported is a death sentence, station cynos are the name of the game.

Thanny is a good ship. Phoenix seems a bit meh for blapping subcaps atm from what I've heard, but no first-hand experience. Should still be as good as being ridic tanky and killing caps as before. Revelation seems to be what lots of people are picking up. Thanny also gives you Ninazu which is hnnnnnngh.
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White 0rchid

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Post 2016.07.07 17:57

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Thanny or nid for ratting, thanny preferred. Thanny also does well in fleet fights. Archon/Chimera are the tankier ones. Apostle/Minokawa for kspace FAX, Lif/Ninazu for wspace FAX.Currently dreads in order of best to worst are Nag -> Revelation -> Phoenix. The Moros has been put on the bench.

Bear in mind that the above has all just changed very recently and could well change again soon.

For hotdropping, carriers are perhaps much easier. With a dread as soon as you siege you're playing a wait game until someone comes to get you. With a carrier you'd be using a hunting ship that has tackle to light the cyno, then a carrier with an NSA to quickly lock and blap things you find.

Aside from that, it takes around a year or so of dedicated training to be able to fly any of those things even remotely well. Then you'd need to find an environment in which to learn them properly :)
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2016.07.07 20:31

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Titus Tallang wrote:Also, guess I'll be the one to go against the grain and say that I have three carriers to 5 (cal/gal/am), perfect triage and near-perfect (currently wip post-citadel) fighter skills on my main.


Get good, all Carriers to 5 or go home ;)

Thanny is a good ship. Phoenix seems a bit meh for blapping subcaps atm from what I've heard, but no first-hand experience. Should still be as good as being ridic tanky and killing caps as before. Revelation seems to be what lots of people are picking up. Thanny also gives you Ninazu which is hnnnnnngh.


Only dread I would avoid is the Moros, the rest have their places, all Carriers are fairly decent, FAX depends very much on whether you want to use it in k-space or w-space as the gameplay is very different.

In w-space the meta, whilst still evolving, has traditionally been very neut heavy for the last 18 months or so, this has marginalized the Moros and Rev as they require cap to fire their guns, the Moros is still a good ship for farming and the Rev is continues to be seen rarely. In short Naglfar and Phoenix continue to dominate depending on the corp and their available support options/preferred play style.
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Tald Kholin

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Post 2016.07.07 20:52

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Thanks Titus, I didn't consider that you'd get great subcap skills along the way. That sounds pretty good - provides versatility to the alt. And thanks for the skill plans, they're great to have! Also sounds like you have a *lot* of cap experience. I'll bother you in-game sometime, if you don't mind. :)

Is the Ninazu good? I wasn't particularly interested in training logi caps, but if it's easily cross-trainable from thanny I might. I do enjoy cruiser/frig logi.

Sounds like carriers are the way to go. Movement versatility permits ratting more safely than the dread,and its fighters provide a good range in hotdrops/harass/gatecamps, if I understand correctly. Coupled with the drone/RTS play-style, I think I'll give carriers my preference. As for which racial, sounds like thanny is the crowd favorite. Any arguments for the others?

And as a side-note, how do supercarriers compare to carriers in terms of power projection? I don't really have a hope of ever getting in one given the cost, but I'd like to know how they compare to normal carriers. I understand that their bonuses make them very tanky, they can field 5 squadrons, they have non-damage superweapons, and can field heavy fighters. Does this mean they're reserved for cap fights, and if so, how do they perform?
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Swguru

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Post 2016.07.07 23:51

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

The big difference between a FAX and a carrier is that where a carrier needs great drone skills for its fighters, you can only use normal drones in a FAX. You do get a 200% bonus to rep drones however. For a FAX you need Logistics V to unlock the skill for Triage, and then train that skill up to V to be able to use the T2 triage module which is vastly superior to T1 (same deal for the siege mod). Capital Remote Reps/Cap Transfers have seperate capital skills above the skills needed for sub-cap reps. Also capacitor seems very tight (at least on the Apostle) so near perfect cap skills are a must. Oh and if you are fighting a fleet that can shoot caps well you are primary, so be prepared to lose your FAX every time you jump it. Your local tank is strong, but not your cap simply can't handle local reps, remote reps and neut pressure all at the same time. I can think of 2 reasons not to get a Thanatos: 1) You have an Archon from ye olde Slowcat days that you didn't turn into an Apostle or 2) a Niddy shield tanks better and your alliance fields a shield cap fleet. You aren't in the former situation, and the later may or may not ever be true :P

Before Citadel, supercarriers had a focus on both logi and dps roles. The logi role has been entire shifted over to the FAX, and now you have to pay a decent amount of attention to applying DPS. Before you launched either heavy or light fighters, but now you have to choose between short or long range heavy fighters, plus light vs support vs space superiority in your launch tubes. And in your fighter bay as well, there is only finite space for the fighters you want plus spares.Positioning your fighters on the field where they can apply their dps and not get blown up themselves is important now as well. I haven't had an opportunity to shoot other capital ships yet, but the long range heavy fighters apply pretty well to battleships. They can hit online POSs now as well, which is a new and refreshing way to kill a POS as fast as possible. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Titus Tallang

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Post 2016.07.08 08:23

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Ninazu is pretty ridiculous at completely disregarding most medium-sized subcap fleets, because cap boosters make neuting irrelevant (you can shrug off something like 6 bhaalgorns last I checked), and most subcap fleets won't break a FAX on raw damage.

It breaks to capitals more easily though - lack of resist bonus hurts it here (which the Apostle has). Like Mia says, it's the better armor FAX for wspace which is a perspective both him and myself will have our views tinted by, we both live there.

PS: Supers are just bigger better carriers. You get 5 launch slots instead of 3, your fighters get a higher bonus to whatever from the hull, and you can use super-only heavy fighters - which are mostly designed to hit larger ships, bombers really only hit other caps, but like a truck.

Oh, and they're a huge hassle to store unless your alliance owns a Keepstar-class citadel (and even then probably, do people even dock their supers in null these days? Sounds like a good way to get camped in to me.) Expect to use a dedicated alt for them (they can't dock in stations, so you log off in them in a safe location (pos shield, typically). Termed "space coffins" for a reason.
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Swguru

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Post 2016.07.08 14:37

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

There is a keepstar anchoring today in null, but I am not sure if anyone else has dropped one yet. Citadels are much harder to camp than a POS on account of not being able to incap citadel weapons, but until bumping while tethered is fixed a POS still the better option imo. Although cynoing in on a fortizar and being at full cap before youngest off is very nice.
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Grognard Commissar

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Post 2016.12.05 02:36

Re: Capitals, what to do with them, and which ones to train?

Titus Tallang wrote:do people even dock their supers in null these days?

yes. there's asset safety, and camping in a super is... a good way to loose alot of ships...
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