[Citadel Expansion] Capitals

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Dama Arishe

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Post 2015.10.30 15:47

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Rashar Arji wrote:
Dama Arishe wrote:It seems pretty clear that W-Space is a bit of an afterthought for CCP, especially with this iteration. It's all about null. I hope there's a meaningful role for dreads after this is all done and dusted, I don't want to just run escalations :(

Not sure if we will be able to do even that. As it is now it's either 2k dps well projected on gurdians with the high angle guns or shit applied dps with the "new current" guns.


Good point. I really hope they iterate on that a bit. I understand why they don't want 100% blap dreads, but what's the point a multibillion dollar ship that can't apply real DPS in a bunch of situtations?

I think they're missing an opportunity to make dreads a really attractive subcap + capital attack platform. I know CCP really picture capitals as part of a different class of gameplay, where caps fight caps (in general), and subcaps fight subcaps, but dreads would be a really nice middle of the pack thing that could function well in both roles. Rather than just having range and EHP advantaged over BS when shooting subcaps.
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Dama Arishe

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Post 2015.10.30 15:52

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Alto DeRaqwar wrote:[quote="Jeff Kione"And that is kind of my point; wormholes aren't exactly the place for Capitals.


This is silly. If they can get in to wormholes, wormholes are their place. And if they can get in, eventually they will be required, simply because everyone has them.
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Klarion Sythis

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Post 2015.10.30 15:54

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Alto DeRaqwar wrote:And that is kind of my point; wormholes aren't exactly the place for Capitals.

Strongly disagree with that. There's no reason why wormhole space isn't a place for capitals.

I think many people would argue that wormholes are one of the most fun places to use capitals right now because there's a hard limit on what you can bring to a fight (3), and each one you choose to bring is a carefully considered decision. Capital combat in w-space is highly tactical and not just a matter of dropping a hammer on something and hoping to live long enough to jump back out. The skill and fun of being a "good" capital pilot is already being watered down by removing combat refitting and the other changes could swing the balance so that it doesn't make sense to bring them anymore.
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Kermit Pental

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Post 2015.10.30 16:16

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Klarion Sythis wrote:
Alto DeRaqwar wrote:And that is kind of my point; wormholes aren't exactly the place for Capitals.

Strongly disagree with that. There's no reason why wormhole space isn't a place for capitals.

I think many people would argue that wormholes are one of the most fun places to use capitals right now because there's a hard limit on what you can bring to a fight (3), and each one you choose to bring is a carefully considered decision. Capital combat in w-space is highly tactical and not just a matter of dropping a hammer on something and hoping to live long enough to jump back out. The skill and fun of being a "good" capital pilot is already being watered down by removing combat refitting and the other changes could swing the balance so that it doesn't make sense to bring them anymore.


I was going to write a thing but a thousand times this!
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Alto DeRaqwar

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Post 2015.11.01 02:12

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Well I can see I certainly kicked a termites nest with my comment. Now a wise man would back away and reconsider their statements; I believe I am such a wise man and have reconsidered. However I'm also a stubborn asshole who is gonna get his teeth kicked in because he can't just lay down and die.

First off this is the major quote people are putting up:

Alto DeRaqwar wrote:wormholes aren't exactly the place for Capitals.


Which read by itself is something I'd agree with; Capitals can fit into wormholes so they can be used. Perhaps my major error was putting a full stop there rather than a semi-colon. Lets look at the full quote.

Alto DeRaqwar wrote:wormholes aren't exactly the place for Capitals. More an "extra" rather than required.


Yes I was wrong to say "Wormholes are't exactly the place for Capitals"; that was a mistake in my intent. What I was trying to say is "capitals are cool in wormholes BUT are required in Sov space.

Here's my point; you don't need capitals to prosper in wormholes; in fact capitals can be a liability in smaller wormholes because you can't get them out without collapsing the hole. If you do have capitals in your wormhole; congratulations! You've done a lot of work and deserve to use them. Escalate to your hearts content. Bring them out if the enemy isn't prepped for them but realize that they are gonna go down to subcapitals because you will never get the mass of Capitals that a Sov conflict will bring.

This is my viewpoint: Capitals in a wormhole are a useful but not required part of wormhole living; whereas if you're fighting for Sov in Sov space you must have capitals otherwise you know for damn sure that Cyno will be going up and the opposition will be bringing their capital fleet in.

Jeff Kione wrote:I think what wormholers are trying to say to CCP is don't forget about how we use capitals when making balance changes largely aimed at capital use in null sec.


Now this I agree with 100% percent; CCP shouldn't forget any role for which Capitals are used for. And personally from what I've seen they haven't. While they are of course focused on preventing the n+1 attitude of SOV Nullsec I haven't seen any reasoning why wormholers are saying:

Dama Arishe wrote:It seems pretty clear that W-Space is a bit of an afterthought for CCP, especially with this iteration. It's all about null. I hope there's a meaningful role for dreads after this is all done


This was what I was originally replying to; the common complaint I often see that "CCP isn't paying attention to me". I really dislike this kind of statement because from everything I've seen regarding CCP they do try and gather as much feedback and information as they can before making major changes. But EVE is such a huge game that not everyone will be happy with any change that is made. I seriously doubt that at any point would CCP forget about wormhole space considering that the type of player who ends up in their must be a diehard fanatic who is not going to let their subs slip.

Dama Arishe wrote:eventually they will be required, simply because everyone has them.


This is probably the only statement which has given me pause. I guess it is possible if wormholers run away with L and XL citadels then capitals will be required to provide the required damage output to meet the minimum damage/minute requirements to take a citadel down in the 15 minute window. That would be kind of sad though as it will make evictions so difficult that I doubt players would bother anymore (i.e. having to crash wormholes with your capitals; then prevent them getting destroyed while you wait for sufficient number to arrive to evict residents). I think (personal opinion again) that CCP is trying to avoid this as much as possible so that evictions remain a fun and interesting part of the game.

Finally

Klarion Sythis wrote:Capital combat in w-space is highly tactical and not just a matter of dropping a hammer on something and hoping to live long enough to jump back out.


This is 100% correct. Capital combat in w-space is cool and exciting and requires far more skill than k-space. But compared to Sov space are capitals a requirement of living in Wormholes space or a cool extra?

P.S. totally off topic but check this webcomic out; it's pretty awesome: http://www.sssscomic.com/
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.11.01 06:58

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

I like that this topic has got you thinking but I think you vastly underestimate capital use in w-space, granted they can only move through certain connections (C5/C6) however getting trapped out of home isn't an issue for most people and when committing to an eviction any competent group will seed capitals for weeks possibly months before they pull the trigger. That said the DPS limits mentioned are potentially quite low so any decent sized fleet does seem capable at bashing mediums and larges.

Whilst I can see the change in carrier role the repair potential and size of Fleet Auxilaries is what has me concerned, if they repair more than a current triage fit this pushes the neut meta even more in w-space and by way of size comparison will they be able to jump wormholes in high class space as something that big could be greater than dread mass.
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Rashar Arji

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Post 2015.11.01 07:09

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Since there seem to be a misconeption about wormhole connections and capitals, here are all capital capable connections(dread and carrier since freighters are slightly different):
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Dama Arishe

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Post 2015.11.01 16:04

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Mia Sedgwick wrote:Whilst I can see the change in carrier role the repair potential and size of Fleet Auxilaries is what has me concerned, if they repair more than a current triage fit this pushes the neut meta even more in w-space and by way of size comparison will they be able to jump wormholes in high class space as something that big could be greater than dread mass.


I was listening to the Jeffraider Show and Fozzie mentioned they're considering neut resistance for the FAs.

The models for the FAs are HUGE, I just hope they don't make the mass to match, that would require rebalancing a lot of wormhole sizes, or simply accepting that FAs aren't going to be going anywhere which would suck even more.

But who knows, they might be changing the mass of all the caps.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.11.01 17:49

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

Dama Arishe wrote:I was listening to the Jeffraider Show and Fozzie mentioned they're considering neut resistance for the FAs.


This would shake things up quite a bit as the greater numbers of neuts whilst still more effective would lead to a trade off, usually for higher cap regen and lower neut power Legions or greater use of ET support Guardians etc.

I'm still super cautious but I'm willing to stay open minded until we see some stats.
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Dama Arishe

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Post 2015.11.30 18:05

Re: [Citadel Expansion] Capitals

You know, I wonder (since FA's are yet another capital type separate from dreads and carriers) if they'll squeeze another 2 capital escalations out of C5+ sites...
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