Capital Crossroads

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Titus Tallang

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Post 2015.07.09 20:38

Re: Capital Crossroads

Yeah, don't do that.

PS: Consider just doing Caldari Carrier IV for now, which lets you fly a very respectable Chimera for a comparatively short train (especially combined with T2 triage).
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.07.09 21:25

Re: Capital Crossroads

Carrier IV is entirely sufficient for all but the most bitterest of vets. This means it's currently in my training queue.

The gap between your two carrier trains should not be that much. Your Archon pilot should be able to at least fit a remote shield rep. A shield rep coming from an Archon is no less effective than a shield rep coming from a Chimera--it just doesn't have a range bonus. If you're going to bother to have a carrier at all, it should be able to Do All The Things to a greater or lesser extent. Have Triage, at least T1. Carry every drone unless you're a suicide triage. Carry bubbles, tackle mods, EWAR, everything.

Oh, and Capital Energy Transfer and Remote Reps are just fine at IV. Training them to V would be a hardcore PvP triage skillplan.

Back to the OP, Rashar's initial post was Most Correct.

Rashar Arji wrote:Hey! Carriers are fairly easy to cross train between (and somewhat expensive), it's 'just' a new carrier skillbook if you played your cards and skills right during your int/mem plan. This thread there are some pretty good arguments as to why your firs capital should be a carrier. Unless you really want a dread or if your corp demands you to fly it, I'd go carrier first simply becuase of the utility it brings you.

Where will you be using your capitals? What corps are you interested in joining?


Not going to leave the Uni anytime soon (assume plans change, btw, I never thought I'd fly caps or live in null)? Train Archon, it's what you'll use most, judging by the lossboards.

Moxquito wrote:
Rashar Arji wrote:I would go with the archon > nid/chimera and have the moros on an alt, but that's just me.


I disagree, I would (and do) put the carrier on an alt and the Dread on the main account, as the main account already have all the gunnery and/or missile support skills trained.


If you're talking about training a pilot from nearly scratch, that's true, just based on training time. But that's not the case. It'd be entirely possible for a carrier to be as far off as a dread, depending on how you skilled your main.

The real reason you want to train carriers on alts (ideally, on your alt account) is convenience. Your cap alt is going to be training for a long time--you don't want to lock your main out if you're still training important subcap skills. Your main can already do useful things, like fly Interceptors and use cynos, that will benefit your carrier pilot. And there are plenty of times when you'll want to dual-box your carrier and dread, meaning you don't want it all on one character.

Also, it'll be easier, later, to take your carrier alt and jam it into a super. By then, you'll probably have trained your main (or another character or two altogether) into capitals.
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Lucius Thrawla

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Post 2015.07.10 13:31

Re: Capital Crossroads

Daniel Wittaker wrote:Carrier IV is entirely sufficient for all but the most bitterest of vets. This means it's currently in my training queue.

Ok, so I currently have Amarr Carrier IV and Gallente Carrier IV. Since I'm not planning on flying the Thanatos Gallente Carrier is fine where it is. Do you think I should take the 50 days to push Amarr Carrier to V before remapping Int/Mem or be happy with it at IV for the next year or so and then take it to V (if I want to) when I next remap Per/Will? If I'm not taking 50 days to get Amarr Carrier V do you think it's worth me taking ~19 days to get Capital Ships IV and Caldari Carrier IV or get those on my next Per/Will map? On one hand I don't think I'll be trying to fly a Chimera any time soon, on the other hand taking 19 days to leave the door open doesn't seem a dumb thing to do.

Daniel Wittaker wrote:The gap between your two carrier trains should not be that much. Your Archon pilot should be able to at least fit a remote shield rep. A shield rep coming from an Archon is no less effective than a shield rep coming from a Chimera--it just doesn't have a range bonus. If you're going to bother to have a carrier at all, it should be able to Do All The Things to a greater or lesser extent. Have Triage, at least T1. Carry every drone unless you're a suicide triage. Carry bubbles, tackle mods, EWAR, everything.

Oh, and Capital Energy Transfer and Remote Reps are just fine at IV. Training them to V would be a hardcore PvP triage skillplan.

Gotcha, I have the Capital Armor Repair/Self Repair/Capacitor Emissions all to III right now and plan to push them to IV shortly after I remap. My Capital Shield Operation/Emission are both 0 but won't take long to get to IV. Tactical Logistics Configuration is at IV and the train to V so I can use T2 Triage looks like it will be about 27 days once I remap. I have light/med/heavy/sentry drones at V and Fighters at IV, Drone support skills are at V except for the 4 specializations, Durability and Advanced Interfacing (which are all at IV). Thermodynamics and Nanite Interfacing are V, Nanite Operation and Neurotoxin Recovery/Control are IV. Jump Drive Operation/Calibration/Fuel Conservation are all at V. The only skill plans here for Carriers are for Triage so I'm not sure what else I'll want/need, if you can think of anything I may be missing please let me know.


Daniel Wittaker wrote:Back to the OP, Rashar's initial post was Most Correct.

Rashar Arji wrote:Hey! Carriers are fairly easy to cross train between (and somewhat expensive), it's 'just' a new carrier skillbook if you played your cards and skills right during your int/mem plan. This thread there are some pretty good arguments as to why your firs capital should be a carrier. Unless you really want a dread or if your corp demands you to fly it, I'd go carrier first simply becuase of the utility it brings you.

Where will you be using your capitals? What corps are you interested in joining?


Not going to leave the Uni anytime soon (assume plans change, btw, I never thought I'd fly caps or live in null)? Train Archon, it's what you'll use most, judging by the lossboards.

Yeah, I'm not naive enough to think I'll be with the Uni forever but I have a lot still to learn and I really enjoy the people I play with right now, of course that means half the reason I have for staying Uni could disappear if they decide they want to move on themselves.

Daniel Wittaker wrote:
Moxquito wrote:
Rashar Arji wrote:I would go with the archon > nid/chimera and have the moros on an alt, but that's just me.


I disagree, I would (and do) put the carrier on an alt and the Dread on the main account, as the main account already have all the gunnery and/or missile support skills trained.


If you're talking about training a pilot from nearly scratch, that's true, just based on training time. But that's not the case. It'd be entirely possible for a carrier to be as far off as a dread, depending on how you skilled your main.

The real reason you want to train carriers on alts (ideally, on your alt account) is convenience. Your cap alt is going to be training for a long time--you don't want to lock your main out if you're still training important subcap skills. Your main can already do useful things, like fly Interceptors and use cynos, that will benefit your carrier pilot. And there are plenty of times when you'll want to dual-box your carrier and dread, meaning you don't want it all on one character.

Also, it'll be easier, later, to take your carrier alt and jam it into a super. By then, you'll probably have trained your main (or another character or two altogether) into capitals.

Yeah, I bought this character on the Bazaar and he came pre-trained with these capital ship skills. If I hadn't skilled in to them already I totally see the wisdom in having specialised alts for capitals but since he has millions of SP invested toward them (and not much else he *needs* to spend his SP on) it seems foolish not to finish up the training. I see what you mean about maybe wanting to dual-box so I'll look at skilling one of my alts in the capital ship direction.

Thanks so much for your input Daniel, I learned a lot about fitting subcaps from reading your posts elsewhere on the forums and I'm glad to be able to continue to learn from you about Caps!
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Titus Tallang

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Post 2015.07.10 14:20

Re: Capital Crossroads

Amarr Carrier V is sexy for the resist bonus alone when flying in something that isn't a blob of 200 carriers.

I may be one of the bittervets that Daniel is warning you about, though, so be aware.
Scientia potentia est.
If a statement I made seems offensive to you, please be assured that this was not my intent.
If I am mistaken about something, please tell me about it. We improve through sharing knowledge.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.07.10 21:04

Re: Capital Crossroads

Daniel Wittaker wrote:Carrier IV is entirely sufficient for all but the most bitterest of vets.


Titus Tallang wrote:Amarr Carrier V is sexy for the resist bonus alone when flying in something that isn't a blob of 200 carriers.

I may be one of the bittervets that Daniel is warning you about, though, so be aware.


Two Carrier 5 skills down, third in the queue, what are you trying to say?

Carrier 5 is awesome though, better resists is good for the Archon/Chimera but the extra rep range is awesome as well for all carriers, 8km doesn't sound a lot but when subcap pilots are screaming like bitches for reps (or cap) suddenly its important. For the Nid the extra rep amount means you can sometimes tank with one repper opposed to having to pulse or run a second one which saves cap, just little things like that make me not want to kill myself every time I look at my carrier alts skill plan.
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.07.11 01:17

Re: Capital Crossroads

Oh yeah, Carrier V is a strong skill across the board. It's also a 60-day skill. There's a lot of things you can add to your repertoire in sixty days that's not +4% resist on one ship, though. Anyways more on that later.

Lucius Thrawla wrote:Do you think I should take the 50 days to push Amarr Carrier to V before remapping Int/Mem or be happy with it at IV for the next year or so and then take it to V (if I want to) when I next remap Per/Will? If I'm not taking 50 days to get Amarr Carrier V do you think it's worth me taking ~19 days to get Capital Ships IV and Caldari Carrier IV or get those on my next Per/Will map? On one hand I don't think I'll be trying to fly a Chimera any time soon, on the other hand taking 19 days to leave the door open doesn't seem a dumb thing to do.


I would take Amarr Carrier to IV. Unless you end up in a wormhole, the real-world build time on a carrier is such that you'll be able to train Caldari Carrier IV before it's completed.

Lucius Thrawla wrote:Gotcha, I have the Capital Armor Repair/Self Repair/Capacitor Emissions all to III right now and plan to push them to IV shortly after I remap. My Capital Shield Operation/Emission are both 0 but won't take long to get to IV. Tactical Logistics Configuration is at IV and the train to V so I can use T2 Triage looks like it will be about 27 days once I remap. I have light/med/heavy/sentry drones at V and Fighters at IV, Drone support skills are at V except for the 4 specializations, Durability and Advanced Interfacing (which are all at IV). Thermodynamics and Nanite Interfacing are V, Nanite Operation and Neurotoxin Recovery/Control are IV. Jump Drive Operation/Calibration/Fuel Conservation are all at V. The only skill plans here for Carriers are for Triage so I'm not sure what else I'll want/need, if you can think of anything I may be missing please let me know.


No, that's a strong skillset. Maybe Anchoring III/IV (I can't remember what a T1 Large Bubble requires), Armor Rigging IV (never not more agility). And make sure you can fit a T2 MWD. Having the option to use a T1 cloak is also handy.

Lucius Thrawla wrote:Yeah, I'm not naive enough to think I'll be with the Uni forever but I have a lot still to learn and I really enjoy the people I play with right now, of course that means half the reason I have for staying Uni could disappear if they decide they want to move on themselves.


Literally the best reason to leave the Uni. Corps fold, alliances die, friends are forever.

Lucius Thrawla wrote:Yeah, I bought this character on the Bazaar and he came pre-trained with these capital ship skills. If I hadn't skilled in to them already I totally see the wisdom in having specialised alts for capitals but since he has millions of SP invested toward them (and not much else he *needs* to spend his SP on) it seems foolish not to finish up the training. I see what you mean about maybe wanting to dual-box so I'll look at skilling one of my alts in the capital ship direction.


I trained my main to carriers first, because (a) I already had all the subcap stuff I wanted, and (b) I was stupid close to both usable carriers and usable dreads due to having crazy SP already. I started nullsec really late in the game.

Now I've been out here long enough that my alts are maturing into that.

Titus Tallang wrote:Amarr Carrier V is sexy for the resist bonus alone when flying in something that isn't a blob of 200 carriers.

I may be one of the bittervets that Daniel is warning you about, though, so be aware.


The smaller the gang, the more importance is placed on the skills of the carrier pilots involved. If you're running, say, 30-60 subcaps supported by 2-3 Triage, then those Triage pilots absolutely have to have T2 Triage, meta reppers, deadspace hardeners, and snort lines of Standard/Improved boosters. Carrier V is at a premium. Hardeners will be getting perma-overheated and replaced from cargo. It's anarchy.

That's because the fleet lives and dies by those Triage. With Triage up and running, DPSing mainline subcaps shouldn't be productive (unless you're whelping hard). The only way to make progress against the fleet is to apply pressure to the carriers. They're not just repping the fleet, they're shielding the subcaps by forcing the enemy to focus the carriers. The fight literally hinges on their EHP, cap life, and resist profile.
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Secondary Khanid

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Post 2015.07.11 11:41

Re: Capital Crossroads

Carrier 5 is even more important in a blob of 200 carriers. You need everything you can get to tank 150 dreads.
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.07.12 03:28

Re: Capital Crossroads

Individually, no; organizationally, yes.

Carrier V and B-Type Armor/X-Type Shield (which are totally affordable) add a lot of effective reps. But if a significant-enough portion of your fleet doesn't have them, then your reps will be broken anyway when the have-nots die. Note that the critical mass of have-nots ("poors" if you will) required for this to happen isn't just the minimum number of dead carriers required to break the tanks of the Carrier V/deadspace bros. It's more than that, because the opposing side won't be able to cherry-pick poors.

Having Carrier V/DS will still slow down the process, though, at least until your reps are completely broken.

I'd advocate trying to be above-average, without going crazy.
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