[Pre-Citadel] Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.06.01 20:08

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

A somewhat deblinged Nid fit just to add some variety

SPOILER WARNING!
[Nidhoggur, Nidhoggur cheap]

Damage Control II
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Pith C-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pith C-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Triage Module II
Capital Murky Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Capital Coaxial Remote Armor Repairer
Capital Coaxial Remote Armor Repairer
Capital Coaxial Remote Armor Repairer

Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Upgrade Rigs, Invulns and Boost Amps where you can/if needed/feasible
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Comrade Blade

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Post 2015.06.01 23:39

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Mia Sedgwick wrote:stuff


Maybe start a dread fitting thread rather than ask why no nids in the carrier fitting thread.
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Chef Xiru

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Post 2015.06.01 23:56

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Comrade Blade wrote:
Mia Sedgwick wrote:stuff


Maybe start a dread fitting thread rather than ask why no nids in the carrier fitting thread.


Last I checked a nidhogger IS a minmatar carrier...
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Shen Tekitsu

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Post 2015.06.02 00:01

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Poor Nidhoggur, that silly minnie carrier everyone seems to forget about...

Thanks for the fitting suggestion Mia. Was definitely feeling odd man out for not training an archon up first.
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Rashar Arji

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Post 2015.06.02 00:31

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Comrade Blade wrote:
Mia Sedgwick wrote:stuff


Maybe start a dread fitting thread rather than ask why no nids in the carrier fitting thread.

The name you are looking for is Naglfar.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.06.02 14:12

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Comrade Blade wrote:
Mia Sedgwick wrote:stuff


Maybe start a dread fitting thread rather than ask why no nids in the carrier fitting thread.


Hmm yes, well I'll be sure to post in the wrong thread in future...

Shen Tekitsu wrote:Poor Nidhoggur, that silly minnie carrier everyone seems to forget about...

Thanks for the fitting suggestion Mia. Was definitely feeling odd man out for not training an archon up first.


No worries, you just need to consider the possible escalation factors, if you want to get reps make sure to tank according to the other reps available. The Nid can do 2 armour 1 shield repper for supporting fellow shield capitals if needed.
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.06.02 20:57

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

In K-space, we greatly favor the Chimera/Archon in all situations. The Nid gets used for emergency/suicide structure reps--though probably not for much longer. This is because we generally have the numbers to ask for specialization.

The problem with the Nid is two-fold. First, there's the lack of the Chimera/Archon 4%/level resist bonus. That's a lot of EHP on a ship this size. Then there's the awkward-as-hell 6/6/5 slot layout. Compare that to the Archon's 7/4/5, and the Chimmie's 4/7/5.

The consequence for that bonus is tank. A half-assed ratting Chimera (cheap, buffer-rigged, DC II'd, generally 2xT2 Invulns) has ~1.6m EHP before links. To compare, a Nid with two Pith-C Invulns, and Pith-A EM and Thermal hardeners only gets up to ~1.8m EHP. And a Slowcat/Boot Archon in full T2 starts out at ~2.3m EHP.

Hence, it's usually far easier for us to simply bring two cheap Archons or Chimeras, than to use a Nidhoggur. Even if we welp them in Triage, it's not a super-huge deal. The Nid's EHP and weaker local tank simply make it undesirable.

PS -- What are we doing? Is this like, declassifying the Uni's capital stuff, or are we updating it or something?

EDIT: Edited carrier highslot count, because I am not allowed to sleep ever again.
Last edited by Daniel Wittaker on 2015.06.03 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.06.02 23:04

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

I think this is more just some basic fitting principles and theory, being a smelly wormhole dweller anything I post is usually in that context though. Tank wise, the Nid can do fine with the added bonus that a T2 Semi fit can swap between armour or shield triage, personally I'd still go Chimera for shield stuff but its really up to personal preference I guess.

With double A-type Invulns and X-type Boost Amps the Nid is a good solo Triage for w-space where you generally want to bring your own dreads so can't bring more than one carrier, instead relying on a Nestor for refitting on the fly and heated invulns/ Strong Blue Pill for massive burst tank (~50k hp/s or roughly 4 dreads) whilst friendly neuts and dps cap out/kill opposing dps, get it wrong though and its a rather expensive lossmail.

Before anyone asks, we're not even going to go near the Thanatos, I mean if you want a ratting carrier thread please feel free to start one, I can assure you many people out there could do with a decent fit for one ;)
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.06.03 02:31

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Oh yeah, I figured your stuff was W-space oriented. In that context, the Nid is fine, and its bonus can really shine.

Mia Sedgwick wrote:Before anyone asks, we're not even going to go near the Thanatos, I mean if you want a ratting carrier thread please feel free to start one, I can assure you many people out there could do with a decent fit for one


The Thanatos is inferior for carrier ratting. For fun reasons. I think I'll waste some of my time explaining them.

First off, let's take a look at a semi-reasonable Thanatos you might use in Deklein today. For fun, I'll actually assume all-V skills. That means Fighters V, and Carrier V. Note that this is fucking absurd.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Thanatos, Gecko Ratting Buffer]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Drone Navigation Computer II

Capital Murky Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Cynosural Field Generator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing I

Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I

Firbolg x10


With Carriers V, shield booster skills to V, and Fighters V, this ship tanks 762 Guristas DPS, which is just about what you'd want to hit the anoms your carrier actually belongs in. It has 2.2m EHP, and deals 2223 DPS.

With Carrier IV and Fighters IV, however, that number drops to 1728 DPS.

Now let's look at a similarly-fit Chimera.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Chimera, Buffer Rattting Gecko Shopping]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script

Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Cynosural Field Generator I
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I

Gecko x7
Vespa II x2


With Carriers IV, Heavy Drones V, and without the ganglink active, you tank 760 Guristas DPS, and have 2.5m EHP. Your DPS at Carriers IV is 1531.

Now I'll do pretend-Q&A time, because that's the easiest way to write this story and give a quick introduction to ratting carrier fitting. Which is no longer completely retarded. Only slightly retarded.

Wittaker, you shitbag, the Thanatos still does over 200 DPS more than the Chimera at Carriers IV. With a more focused spread of damage types than the omnidamage Geckos.
Yes, it does. And the Geckos are only about as fast as the Firbolgs.

However, the Geckos have ~1.1 tracking, whereas the Firbolgs (which track really damn fast for fighters) are down around .3. Both have the same 400m signature resolution--but Geckos from ratting carriers, even AFK ratting carriers, routinely kill tackling inties. Don't hold your breath waiting for your fighters to hit an NPC frigate. One of them will get lucky eventually, but it's gonna take some time.

There's another less-obvious problem with fighters, however. Unlike heavy drones, they don't auto-aggress. With a flight of heavies, you simply land in a site, activate your link/ECM burst/whatever (more on that later), pop drones, and then go watch a movie. With fighters, you have to lock every NPC. Not only is this a lot of clicking, but the low scanres of carriers means that you lose a lot of DPS waiting to lock a new wave.

So? Stop being lazy, click all your own targets and train Carriers/Fighters V.
That's literally four months of training time. And clicking effort sucks. I'd be willing to wager you get smaller ticks than you do with an AFK-Gecko setup as well.

Your fits are stupidly cap-stable, you mong.
Yes, they are. In fact, if you plug in CA-1/2/3/4, plus -603/-803 cap implants, you'll find the Chimera is cap-stable at 78%.

This is so that, when legitimately-threatened, you can simply recall drones and immediately jump out to an exit cyno. This can either be an alt at a station, or a cyno beacon on the JB network (after you check intel, duh). You don't have to wait to warp out, and you don't have to worry about getting hung up on an asteroid or accel gate or some such nonsense.

There's even a fair bit of excess cap built-in so that you don't have to worry about what little cap you use for warping.

What's with the ganglink module? I don't like training useful skills.
Glad you asked. It's about managing NPC aggro.

Without any offensive modules on your carrier, NPCs will slowly shift aggro to your drones. By the third wave, they'll be pretty much focused on killing your expensive-ass Geckos.

So we need a module to piss them off. Rat AI hates three things--remote reps, EWAR, and fleet assist modules. I'll go through each, so you'll understand why a ganglink is best.

Remote Reps--Limited in range, eats cap, but fits in a highslot that you don't really need. Unfortuantely, if you get jammed or damped out of range of your target (usually one of your own drones), the module shuts off and the rats will begin shooting your drones.

ECM Burst--Less bad than the remote rep, and functions without a lock. Yes, the range is short, but the NPCs just have to be hit by it--you don't need a single successful jam for it to work. The downside is that if a blue warps into your anom, the ECM burst will hit the blue, causing 1500 DPS of Gecko fury to pop the friendly. Thus costing you a few hundred million to replace that stupid poor's AFKtar, despite the fact that a non-idiot would have had plenty of time to warp out.

Fleet Assist Module--Adds a tiny bit of tank to your ship, fits in your highslots, works 100% of the time, and doesn't go Skynet on blues.

Your highslots are all screwed up. You should totally use DCUs.
Shut up, bad.

The Cyno allows you to immediately call for help. If you're ratting in fleet with other blues who are carrier ratting, and you're not in range of dudes that'll counter-drop dreads and crap on you, you an simply light your cyno and have all your Chimera buddies land on you, thus turning your ratting bait Chimera into an almost unassailable blob of carebear revenge.

The RR/ET exists for that reason. When all your buddies land on you, you can get a cap chain up and spider tank a shitload of DPS. Five Chimeras have a group tank of roughly 9,000 DPS. That's way more damage than your average roaming gang will be able to break, and almost enough to tank a dread.

You can still get ganked by wormholers or hotdropped or something.
Right you are. Your first task, before you start carrier ratting, should be to personally verify any signatures in your system. Don't take the word of some Euro pub that's logging off as you sign in. This takes all of three minutes to do. If there's a wormhole, it's probably not a super-great idea to carrier rat. 95% of the time, nothing will come of it, but that remaining 5% can really hurt. Remember, it's not just your carrier that's at risk, it's everyone that dropped what they were doing to jump their carriers in to help you. You should also advise your fellow carrier carebears of the 'hole, especially anyone likely to FC a carrier counter-drop.

For hotdrops, you should be aware of what's in Blops/Bridge range. Use Dotlan for this. If there's NPC or otherwise not-super-friendly space within Blops/bridge range of your system, you should avoid getting tackled, rather than trying to whore inty kills with your Geckos.

You should use CCCs. That would let you run Triage more better, or use a larger shieldrep while remaining at jumpcap.
Going into Triage means you lose all your DPS output, putting you completely at the mercy of whatever's shooting you. You're also going to perma-tank only ~8k DPS, less than you would with only four Chimmie buddies bringing one rep each (and you should reasonably have more than that on both counts). You're also very vulnerable to neuting.

The trip-extender rigs, on the other hand, buy you 800k EHP, which is a lot of time for friendlies to come rescue your silly ass. It also lets you use your carrier for genuine, intentional PvP, when you're not being a massive carebear with it.

Any other glorious wisdom?
When you land, immediately drop a Mobile Depot. The idea is to have it out before you get tackled. This lets you refit to WCS to escape NPC tackle and jump out, or simply moonwalk away from the inty that tackled you for its 60-man Ishtar gang. Or refit to full tank and jump into a fight, or survive a gang that's on you while you wait for help. If you wait to drop it until you need it, it'll be too late to be useful, and the first thing any gang is going to do is primary the Mobile Depot a lone tackled carrier just dropped.
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Azure Rogue

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Post 2015.06.03 05:44

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Daniel Wittaker wrote:The Thanatos is inferior for carrier ratting. For fun reasons. I think I'll waste some of my time explaining them.


I'd hardly call that post a waste of time. I may never end up carrier ratting (who knows) but I still found the explanation really informative... now I'll wait for someone to come argue with you so I can learn more.
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.06.03 07:19

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

All good points from Wittaker, thankfully most Null bears do very few of these things which often means people burn in assorted subcaps kitchen sink style leading to crazy ass fun fights, Kadeshi and FCON come to mind.

Having a Cyno to bring in either friendly caps or an organised subcap fleet are usually the things that save ratters. On the depot front, if they don't have one out when you get on grid I generally drop one on them to stop them from having the ability to refit so yeah, have one out asap if you carrier rat as it'll probably save your ass.
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.06.03 09:30

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Rule of thumb with wormholes is, assume there's a couple dreads and an organized 60-man Ishtar fleet on the other side. Not ready to fight that immediately? Then don't. I think a lot of carrier ratters underestimate the threat posed by a wormhole.

Azure Rogue wrote: I may never end up carrier ratting (who knows) but I still found the explanation really informative... now I'll wait for someone to come argue with you so I can learn more.


There's a really limited set of circumstances where it makes any sense at all. If you don't have a good intel network and a cyno beacon, then you should really have an alt with an exit cyno. At that point, you're really better off going with two heavy drone AFKtars. Remember you're not getting really absurd ticks with a carrier--only ~30m.

You could even make the case that training an alt just for carrier ratting is kind've silly. Racial Carrier and Capital Ships alone is something like 900m isk. If you get 15m isk ticks out of an Ishtar, and 30m isk ticks out of a carrier, then it takes 60 hours of carrier ratting to pay off just those two skillbooks. Then there's Capital shield/armor transfer, Capital Energy Transfer, Capital Reps, JDC, JDO, JFC, plus the training time.
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Affra

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Post 2015.06.03 09:40

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

I have a ratting alt in FCON, was in a small renter null sec corp first, but they ended up joining FCON.

I rarely see carriers ratting now around the systems I frequent (I do a lot of exploring currently). It is mostly Ishtars, or the occational Marauder, sometimes T3 (especially for them 10/10 escallations).

I frequently sell 10/10 escallations for 160 million as I CBA to run them myself.

Btw, thanks Daniel for wasting some time, very informative read, was thinking to maybe move from Marauder to a ratting carrier, but I think ill skip that (he can fly a dread now tho!).
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Mia Sedgwick

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Post 2015.06.03 11:52

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Daniel Wittaker wrote:Rule of thumb with wormholes is, assume there's a couple dreads and an organized 60-man Ishtar fleet on the other side. Not ready to fight that immediately? Then don't. I think a lot of carrier ratters underestimate the threat posed by a wormhole.


Many ratting carriers are so poorly fit even a small gang of 8 or so with Ishtars and/or Gilas can take down a carrier with a cloaky Sabre keeping it tackled. If you're somehow able to lock a dictor then it should be the first thing you kill as bubbles will cause far more issues than points/scrams.
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Shirralia

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Post 2015.06.03 15:15

Re: Capital Ship fittings - carrier edition

Daniel Wittaker wrote:Then there's the awkward-as-hell 6/6/6 slot layout. Compare that to the Archon's 7/4/6, and the Chimmie's 4/7/6.


I AM SO VERY CONFUSED

None of the carriers have 6 high-slots.
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