Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

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Anducio Grandoli

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Post 2016.10.18 02:01

Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

I've got a character who is currently training into Jump Freighters to be my perfect hauling character. She's getting all the skills to V for jump-drive operation, calibration, conservation, and the jump freighter skill itself. I've then got the support skills to maximize align time, EHP increasing skills, and all that as well. This JF will primarily be to make it so I can be between hubs and AMC/Solitude with stops in LSC/NSC if I ever help anyone out.

My questions revolve more around which JF to pick (& why), if there are any tips or tricks of the trade, and any other regular items that I might be missing. I've been told recently that the Ark, however good looking, might be a bad idea due to the risk of bumping as a result of its size.

Any recommended reading or other advice is appreciated!
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Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu

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Post 2016.10.18 05:10

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Ok, so first off their size doesn't matter, they are all huge and will bump off if you screw up your cyno placement. I've done tens of thousands of jumps and have never screwed up a cyno placement.

Use this guide and practice on Sisi before attempting it on tranquility: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1312/Station_Cyno_Placement_Guide.pdf

As a general guide it's good. Once you start doing more and more jumps you'll learn better cyno spots, and now as long as you have your tactical overlay ticked on, hover over your cynosural fiel generator module, it will actually show a red orb around your ship where your JF will land.

As far as which one to pick:

Rhea – Has the largest cargo capacity. But has the highest fuel cost and consumption. It's also the
slowest, but with decent EHP.

Ark – It's the best looking. But in the middle as far as EHP, cargo, fuel use, and speed.

Anshar – Has the greatest EHP and the 2nd largest cargo capacity behind the Rhea. It's in the middle
for speed and fuel consumption.

Nomad – Has the smallest cargo capacity, least amount of EHP, but is fastest and uses the least amount of fuel.

In all honesty the EHP and speed doesn't really matter to me. The most dangerous place for a Jump Freighter is going to be in highsec. And the only reason you're going to be in highsec is if you're going to your end destination. You don't want to gate these things through highsec...like ever.

So, that being said, if someone wants to gang you, they will have already scanned you, figured out how much EHP you have, and will bring enough DPS to kill you. I lost a fully 842,490 EHP tanked Anshar due to a gank in highsec. (*I had exit cynos but clicked “warp” instead of “align”, when the catalyst landed on me I tried to jump but was in warp. By the time I figured out that I needed to stop warp, hit stop, and tried to jump I was scrammed and done for. )

Since you're only taking short trips in highsec to your end destination, you'll always have at least ONE (if not more) exit cynos ready to go. You'll always be within jump range of your exit cynos, so the speed isn't that important to me.

Most hauling corps use the Nomad since the corps have a cap on their max cargo at 320,000m3 (which the Nomad can haul), and since it's the fastest and cheapest on fuel.

Personally I went with the Anshar, because of it's extra cargo capacity compared to the Nomad and the fuel cost aren't as bad as the Rhea.

What you need to carry in your cargo are:

3 x inertial stabilizers (You can trick them out for “Shadow Serpentis Inertial Stabilizers” for better align times.)

3 x Reinforced Bulkheads II (Trick em out for Syndicate Reinforced Bulkeads for more EHP)

3 x Expanded Cargohold II (Trick em out for ORE Expanded Cargohold for more cargo space)

3 x Prototype Jump Drive Economizer (these cut your fuel cost by 10% per module, stacking penalties apply though. These are pretty expensive so you can start off with “Experimental Jump Drive Economizers” but they only cut your fuel cost by 7%.) But honestly you'll want to use them, they pretty much pay for themselves after a while. You will be spending billions of Isk in fuel costs so every little bit helps.

In addition to the above you'll want to stock up on extra fuel for your JF (I usually carry a full tank extra in my hold so 10,000m3 extra)

Extra Liquid ozone and cynos for your cyno toon.

If you're really interested in hauling, I would highly suggest you start looking into some of the hauling corps in Eve, Black Frog and PushX are the most popular. You can haul and earn dank isk while still helping out your Unibros.

And finally here are some links for stuff to read up on:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oDXCyw0nTV39EEDUk2cxsQ65BZOIGaXS65YC64Dp89U/edit?hl=en&authkey=CM-GqtcH&pli=1&pli=1

https://sites.google.com/site/redfrogrecruiting/home

For PushX recruitment join “PX HR” chat channel in game.

If you have further questions you can PM on the forums or post questions here and I'll try to answer them.
Last edited by Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu on 2016.10.18 08:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Azure Rogue

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Post 2016.10.18 05:50

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

I know nothing about this topic, but wanted to pop in to say that the post above mine is why I wish the Uni had a reddit-like feature so I could give that guy some gold :) I can't vouch for the veracity of the points made, but the level of detail in that response is amazing and totally fitting with the goals of the Uni.
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White 0rchid

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Post 2016.10.18 08:51

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Yeah I'm personally training into the Nomad myself, purely due to the fuel costs right now. Cross training isn't actually too hard though.

One last thing that really works well - webbing alts. If you are worried about travel in highsec, run a webbing alt on another account. You can technically go with whatever you want, but fitting up something with web range (cruor for pirate frigs or hyena if you have min frig 5) or strength (daredevil) can massively help.
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Anducio Grandoli

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Post 2016.10.18 15:17

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu wrote:Ok, so first off their size doesn't matter, they are all huge and will bump off if you screw up your cyno placement. I've done tens of thousands of jumps and have never screwed up a cyno placement.

Use this guide and practice on Sisi before attempting it on tranquility: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1312/Station_Cyno_Placement_Guide.pdf
SPOILER WARNING!
As a general guide it's good. Once you start doing more and more jumps you'll learn better cyno spots, and now as long as you have your tactical overlay ticked on, hover over your cynosural fiel generator module, it will actually show a red orb around your ship where your JF will land.

As far as which one to pick:

Rhea – Has the largest cargo capacity. But has the highest fuel cost and consumption. It's also the
slowest, but with decent EHP.

Ark – It's the best looking. But in the middle as far as EHP, cargo, fuel use, and speed.

Anshar – Has the greatest EHP and the 2nd largest cargo capacity behind the Rhea. It's in the middle
for speed and fuel consumption.

Nomad – Has the smallest cargo capacity, least amount of EHP, but is fastest and uses the least amount of fuel.

In all honesty the EHP and speed doesn't really matter to me. The most dangerous place for a Jump Freighter is going to be in highsec. And the only reason you're going to be in highsec is if you're going to your end destination. You don't want to gate these things through highsec...like ever.

So, that being said, if someone wants to gang you, they will have already scanned you, figured out how much EHP you have, and will bring enough DPS to kill you. I lost a fully 842,490 EHP tanked Anshar due to a gank in highsec. (*I had exit cynos but clicked “warp” instead of “align”, when the catalyst landed on me I tried to jump but was in warp. By the time I figured out that I needed to stop warp, hit stop, and tried to jump I was scrammed and done for. )

Since you're only taking short trips in highsec to your end destination, you'll always have at least ONE (if not more) exit cynos ready to go. You'll always be within jump range of your exit cynos, so the speed isn't that important to me.

Most hauling corps use the Nomad since the corps have a cap on their max cargo at 320,000m3 (which the Nomad can haul), and since it's the fastest and cheapest on fuel.

Personally I went with the Anshar, because of it's extra cargo capacity compared to the Nomad and the fuel cost aren't as bad as the Rhea.

What you need to carry in your cargo are:

3 x inertial stabilizers (You can trick them out for “Shadow Serpentis Inertial Stabilizers” for better align times.)

3 x Reinforced Bulkheads II (Trick em out for Syndicate Reinforced Bulkeads for more EHP)

3 x Expanded Cargohold II (Trick em out for ORE Expanded Cargohold for more cargo space)

3 x Prototype Jump Drive Economizer (these cut your fuel cost by 10% per module, stacking penalties apply though. These are pretty expensive so you can start off with “Experimental Jump Drive Economizers” but they only cut your fuel cost by 7%.) But honestly you'll want to use them, they pretty much pay for themselves after a while. You will be spending billions of Isk in fuel costs so every little bit helps.

In addition to the above you'll want to stock up on extra fuel for your JF (I usually carry a full tank extra in my hold so 10,000m3 extra)

Extra Liquid ozone and cynos for your cyno toon.

If you're really interested in hauling, I would highly suggest you start looking into some of the hauling corps in Eve, Black Frog and PushX are the most popular. You can haul and earn dank isk while still helping out your Unibros.


And finally here are some links for stuff to read up on:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oDXCyw0nTV39EEDUk2cxsQ65BZOIGaXS65YC64Dp89U/edit?hl=en&authkey=CM-GqtcH&pli=1&pli=1

https://sites.google.com/site/redfrogrecruiting/home

For PushX recruitment join “PX HR” chat channel in game.

If you have further questions you can PM on the forums or post questions here and I'll try to answer them.


Will be reading all of this in depth then hitting you again with more questions, but I appreciate the response above already! I knew nothing about 'jump economizers' and only recently learned that exit-cynos were a thing. I've already got plans to stage standard freighters or deep-space transports near my high-sec entry so I'm not gating more than once in the jump freighter.

Is it worth considering placing an Astrahus in a quiet stop-off system (I know I'll need at least two jumps for my primary route) with just the clone-bay to make moving the cyno-alt easier and not needing to worry about a Nyx dropping on me at a public station?

White 0rchid wrote:Yeah I'm personally training into the Nomad myself, purely due to the fuel costs right now. Cross training isn't actually too hard though.

One last thing that really works well - webbing alts. If you are worried about travel in highsec, run a webbing alt on another account. You can technically go with whatever you want, but fitting up something with web range (cruor for pirate frigs or hyena if you have min frig 5) or strength (daredevil) can massively help.


Already have a webber-alt in a Vigil Fleet Issue that I use for my Bowhead and current freighters, he's eventually going to get into something like the Huginn to make webbing even easier. How bad is the fuel consumption difference between the Nomad and the Rhea (if you can average it out) even at perfect skills?
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White 0rchid

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Post 2016.10.18 16:51

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

So I picked a random route that totals ~114LY.

Nomad uses 117,018 Hydrogen Isotopes (79mil)
Ark uses 125,582 Helium Isotopes (78mil)
Anshar uses 134,143 Oxygen Isotopes (94mil)
Rhea uses 142,707 Nitrogen Isotopes (118mil)

So with current prices, for every 1LY, costs are:

Nomad - 693k
Ark - 684k
Anshar - 825k
Rhea - 1,035k

Which means right now the Nomad is 67% the cost of the Rhea. And for each LY travelled it costs you 342k ISK extra in the Rhea. For me to do a round trip to our staging, it's 27LY (roughly), so each day I'm saving ~9.2mil in fuel. That's 3.4bil a year.
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Anducio Grandoli

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Post 2016.10.18 22:55

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

White 0rchid wrote:So I picked a random route that totals ~114LY.

Nomad uses 117,018 Hydrogen Isotopes (79mil)
Ark uses 125,582 Helium Isotopes (78mil)
Anshar uses 134,143 Oxygen Isotopes (94mil)
Rhea uses 142,707 Nitrogen Isotopes (118mil)

So with current prices, for every 1LY, costs are:

Nomad - 693k
Ark - 684k
Anshar - 825k
Rhea - 1,035k

Which means right now the Nomad is 67% the cost of the Rhea. And for each LY travelled it costs you 342k ISK extra in the Rhea. For me to do a round trip to our staging, it's 27LY (roughly), so each day I'm saving ~9.2mil in fuel. That's 3.4bil a year.


That offers a great perspective! So unless I plan to fully utilize the rest of the cargospace that the Rhea offers, the Nomad is the sensible option. Thank you, White0rchid.
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Crazy Kitten

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Post 2016.10.19 01:04

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

White 0rchid wrote:Nomad - 693k
Ark - 684k
Anshar - 825k
Rhea - 1,035k


using those numbers as basis, and 3 ore cargo expanders and all lvl 5 skills, i calculate the following isk per cubic meter per lightyear:
nomad (354204 m³): 1.9565
ark (362254 m³): 1.8882
anshar (368962 m³): 2.2360
rhea (386404 m³): 2,6785

so, the rhea costs 1.42 times over the ark if you fully load the hold.

setting aside 10k m³ changes these numbers to:
nomad: 2.013
ark: 1.942
anshar: 2.298
rhea: 2.750

even setting aside 300k m³ for unpaying cargo, the ark would still be more isk-efficient than the rhea (~11 isk/m³/ly vs ~12 isk/m³/ly) oO

calculating the other way around, a ship becomes as isk-efficient as a fully loaded rhea when it carries the following volumes:
nomad: 258737 m³
ark: 255367 m³
anshar: 308009 m³

guess i'll have to train for the ark myself, then... which, fortunately, also has a good skin selection with the recent events
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Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu

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Post 2016.10.20 00:58

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Yeah, sorry...I should have clarified. The only thing worse than a Jump Freighter trekking thru highsec is a freaking Freighter trekking thru highsec.

Scenario #1

You're in a Freighter and someone starts bumping you off in a Machariel. Whatcha gonna do? Hope your webbing alt gets you in warp fast enough and/or it doesn't get blown up by gankers in this system or the next. Since they've now smelled blood and are on to your vapid ass. KTA and call in every favor you can muster promising to suck !@F# if someone will come to help you?

Scenario #2

You're in a Jump Freighter and a mach starts burning towards you. Light your exit cyno (that you always have ready cause you're not a retard) and GTFO.

To be fair, with freighters you can mitigate the damage. If you're not carrying more than 1 bil Isk worth of cargo, have webbing alts, and are in an established hauling corp that will pay you to buy a new Freighter if yours gets blown up. But you will loose a freighter, it's going to happen, just get used to the idea.

Switching cargo from a Jump Freighter to a freighter is just going to make you more vulnerable, don't do it. Deep-space transports can't carry the loads your Jump Freigther can, you'd have to make multiple trips, just save yourself the time....and besides, they get blown up too. And you'll have to travel to Trade hubs anyway to stock back up on fuel, cynos, and ozone...unless you plan on making DSP trips to stock back up on those too.

The people that Tiki killed were idiots, they went AFK in lowsec whilst warping to a highsec gate, or didn't realize that super-carrier can alpha a Jump Freighter and did jack shit when a Nyx cynoed next to them. Cause you're not dumb, you're actually looking at your screen and when that happens you dock back up. From there you can wait it out, cyno to another system adjacent to highsec and go your merry way. Been there, done that...Tiki didn't get me.

"Is it worth considering placing an Astrahus in a quiet stop-off system..."

You don't need to spend billions of isk setting up citadels, NPC stations are just fine. Unless you plan on going to Sov Null, in which case why not just join an established hauling corp that's 90% blue to all of Sov and you can dock at their outposts and citadels.



"...to make moving the cyno-alt easier..."

For your cyno alt, train him into something like this:

[Ares, Cyno Ares]
Expanded Cargohold I
Inertial Stabilizers II
Inertial Stabilizers II
Inertial Stabilizers II

Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Medium Shield Extender I

Cynosural Field Generator I

Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Liquid Ozone x300

You align in less that 2 seconds, and are immune to all gate camps everywhere. You can even tank one or two smart bombs. Haven't lost mine in like a year.

Once you dock up:

1. Right click top left station name and hit “Set Home System”
2. Pay stupid Isk sink fee since CCP removed Isk sink fee for clones.
3. Take out the cyno and fuel.
4. Exit your ship
5. Contract said ship to one of your alts.
6. Undock
7. Dock back up
8. You now have a free rookie ship
9. Fit said rookie ship with cyno and ozone.
10. Undock and move to your cyno bookmark (Make a folder for cyno spots and start saving them)
11. Light cyno and bring in your JF
12. Wait session timer for your JF and dock it up.
13. Wait the 10 min timer on your cyno, or set auto-destruct so you only have to wait 2 min, or wait and observe the lowest form of PvP when some wanna be, tryhard, lowsec pirate nerd comes and blows you up.
14. Either dock back up, or because above mentioned assclown killed you, find yourself back in your pod in station because you followed Step #1.
15. Trade extra cyno and ozone from JF to to Cyno Alt
16. Cancel contract you made in Step#5 and get your ship back.
17. Burn to your next cyno destination.

Or join an established hauling corp that has cynos, ozone, and rookie ships literally seeded in every system in Eve and eliminate, steps #3 - #9.

Rinse and repeat....extra cyno toons make this process faster. Though I've found that more than 2 cyno toons and you start running into fatty gay issues, so I pretty much only use 2.

I'll be on this wknd so hit me up on PM and I'll meet you somewhere and trade you like a thousand station cyno bookmarks that you can use at your own risk since I too was once a newbie and the first few hundred might not be that perfect. But that's still like 80% gud, and unless I am myself ganking freighters, or doing the tryhard pirate thing, swagging muh super caps around, or in general trying to PvP myself into glory for the benefit of the most awe inspiring, the most elite, the most premier alliance in game, that is The Pandemic Legion, shadowed only by its best corporation that is Snigg #1, I'll hook up with you.

Sorry, went on a tangent there....

P.S. Don't mention the AT, we don't wanna talk about it.
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Tavion Aksmis

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Post 2016.10.26 04:10

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

1. Just wanted to say that Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu's answers are pretty much spot on :)

2. Surprised at how cheap hydrogen isotopes currently are, because the Nomad does use significantly less fuel, still the Ark fuel cost is the lowest.

3. Some extra materials that you mind find useful are the slideshows and recordings of my Jump Freighter classes. You could even attend my next class witch will most likely be on sunday November 13th :)

Slides: http://slides.eveuniversity.org/?slidesID=200
Recording: https://mega.nz/#!lEpkgZhC!AQT9lyR9Z_xb ... Ww4D8lS368
(Problem with listening to the recording is that there is no indication to when I am swapping slides)
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Paledan Safemal

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Post 2016.10.27 08:27

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

The hauling page of the wiki http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Hauling doesn't seem to have anything about jump freighters, and it seems to me most of the information in this thread would make a great wiki page that could be linked from the main page, the way blockade runners are (shame DSTs aren't).

Now, I'm not going to do it because I don't know if I can even edit the wiki anymore, I don't want to rob a hard-working unista of the opportunity to earn brownie points toward graduation and I'm just lazy, but Someone (tm) probably out to. Jess sayin'... 8)
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Tavion Aksmis

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Post 2016.10.28 00:35

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Hehe, good point. Anyone can edit the wiki actually, all you need is to register a user and confirm your email. It was suggested that I edit it, but I just could not get around to do it, and now I certainly don't have the time.
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Pehuen

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Post 2016.10.29 02:55

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Paledan Safemal wrote:The hauling page of the wiki http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Hauling doesn't seem to have anything about jump freighters, and it seems to me most of the information in this thread would make a great wiki page that could be linked from the main page, the way blockade runners are (shame DSTs aren't).

Now, I'm not going to do it because I don't know if I can even edit the wiki anymore, I don't want to rob a hard-working unista of the opportunity to earn brownie points toward graduation and I'm just lazy, but Someone (tm) probably out to. Jess sayin'... 8)

The information in this thread would be good for a JF wiki, although you could possibly do a Freighter and JF single page.

The current hauling page is just a very brief overview, a single line about JF is all that really belongs there.

Unless someone wants to re-write the haul thing to be more informative about all it's content.
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Anducio Grandoli

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Post 2016.11.01 19:51

Re: Jump Freighters - A Few Questions

Tavion Aksmis wrote:1. Just wanted to say that Arc-Lucem-Ferre Motsu's answers are pretty much spot on :)

2. Surprised at how cheap hydrogen isotopes currently are, because the Nomad does use significantly less fuel, still the Ark fuel cost is the lowest.

3. Some extra materials that you mind find useful are the slideshows and recordings of my Jump Freighter classes. You could even attend my next class witch will most likely be on sunday November 13th :)

Slides: http://slides.eveuniversity.org/?slidesID=200
Recording: https://mega.nz/#!lEpkgZhC!AQT9lyR9Z_xb ... Ww4D8lS368
(Problem with listening to the recording is that there is no indication to when I am swapping slides)


Your originally recorded JF/Suitcase Cap class audio was what convinced me that my alt needed to perfect her hauling (and subsequently ended up with a 9 month queue related entirely to hauling...). :) Definitely going to try and catch the next class you do live.

Pehuen wrote:
Paledan Safemal wrote:The hauling page of the wiki http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Hauling doesn't seem to have anything about jump freighters, and it seems to me most of the information in this thread would make a great wiki page that could be linked from the main page, the way blockade runners are (shame DSTs aren't).

Now, I'm not going to do it because I don't know if I can even edit the wiki anymore, I don't want to rob a hard-working unista of the opportunity to earn brownie points toward graduation and I'm just lazy, but Someone (tm) probably out to. Jess sayin'... 8)

The information in this thread would be good for a JF wiki, although you could possibly do a Freighter and JF single page.

The current hauling page is just a very brief overview, a single line about JF is all that really belongs there.

Unless someone wants to re-write the haul thing to be more informative about all it's content.


I see what you did there... :roll: *goes and buys a JF/injects the required SP for the test server.* "For practice..."
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