Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

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Ersin Oghuz

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Post 2017.12.09 05:09

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Cassiel it seems you have a good plan to include Alpha Capsuleers into the Incursion Community. Even with 10% reduced locking time it can be viable option and as been said before while they run and make ISK they can meta up and use faction boosters to increase their locking time. It would be good to add those skills that will be changed under a section "skills need to be trained as soon as you gain Omega status" or something like that so when an alpha toon upgrades to omega he or she can priotize those skills right away.
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Neonen

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Post 2017.12.11 17:19

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

So, I read over the arguments of pro and cons.. nice and all, but the fact is Alphas can do Incursions and it's always better to have a fleet than no fleet.

Which is why I don't really get why there is so much fuss about all of it. It works, it attracts more players, it helps getting more fleets to form with a slight decrease in efficiency. Whiiiich is no cons argument because the Incursion Community is not about efficiency first, but teaching.
Including Alphas is in line with the first goal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.13 13:04

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

It's been a week and I think it's safe to say the feedback is as follows:

1) Inclusion is good. More people, higher chance of fleets.
2) Various ideas about the ideal way to handle generic plans vs Omega/Alpha plans.
3) Concern about safety if we get too many Alpha pilots.

I don't think 1) is worth discussion, the only thing we need to keep in mind is 3) which I'll touch on further down.

As for 2) I've taken in all the suggestions and I'm more than happy to take in even more feedback on this as the wiki gets updated and more pages on this topic emerges. I'm sure there will be room for improvements as we start this and get some hands-on experience and feedback from the community.

When it comes to 3) I think it's a combination of a few things:

a) Some people were under the impression our minimums today (not including the proposed changes) aren't safe, that our doctrine is assuming we get non-minimum ships to overcome sites. This is simply not the case. Our minimums are based on getting 100% minimum fits and still be able to safely run sites. We just won't be that speedy about it, but we'll be able to (assuming people don't compromise the minimum fits) clear warp disrupt capable ships and get off grid in case of an emergency. Worse case scenario we'll be forced to swap one or two ships over to long range weapons to deal with the Mara if we end up with all short range fits.

b) Some people seem to be under the impression that a minimum skilled Alpha pilot would be drastically weaker than an Omega pilot with our current minimum skills. This is not the case, as I outlined in my original post. They will have slightly worse cap (but still good enough to function), slightly less EM resists (emphasis on slightly, well within the cushion buffer of safety we have) and slightly slower locking speed. In terms of tracking, damage output etc, they'll be on par with Omegas except for a tiny bit of drone damage potential. All in all it's realistic to simply view minimum Alphas as regular pilots with 10% less locking speed.

c) Some people want to push the bar higher than it currently is. To this I can only say that I understand this, a more efficient fleet is a safer fleet as well as a more profitable fleet. But our main goal is to introduce and teach people about incursions. There's a big difference in encouraging people to improve and to force them to improve or raise the bar. We should continue to encourage people to train better skills, get more efficient ships and improve their efficiency and knowledge about Incursions. But we shouldn't force or demand people to do this, that is not our way. We should make sure our fleets are safe, welcoming and "good enough", in this we can be forceful.

Summary:

All in all, I'm going to go ahead with this and start implementing the inclusion of Alphas to our community. We will undoubtedly need to adjust as we go along in order to find the best way to move forward with this, but I simply cannot see any real downsides to this. I expect this to have two somewhat tangible results:

1) It'll allow new players or young unistas to start cooking an Alpha incursion alt on the side, or train themselves into incursions and try it out. This will allow a few more people to come join our community and try incursions out. Especially the option to have a free second account to dedicate to incursions (without having to pay for it or maintain it much), that they can just park in the incursion and move whenever we move. This will mitigate some of the issues people have travelling to and from their favourite campus etc. I'm guessing some people will jump at this, people who aren't interested in paying for a second account, but wouldn't mind having one. This can be combined for various other useful things too, like hauler alts.

2) Old players who stopped subbing for EVE, will have the option to return to Incursions and still be able to utilize a lot of their former Omega skills (although far from all of them). This will further improve the pool of people we can pull from.

I'm not expecting drastic changes, but hopefully we'll have just a few more people to fill up our fleets as time goes by. It'll still be a long train for Alpha pilots, but it's an option. An option they didn't have before. Same for returning players.
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Zeerse Solaris

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Post 2017.12.13 13:23

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Perhaps proceeding or with the wiki updates when they are made, we run some classes on incursions to cater for a potential spike in interest.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.13 13:41

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Zeerse Solaris wrote:Perhaps proceeding or with the wiki updates when they are made, we run some classes on incursions to cater for a potential spike in interest.
I encourage everyone who is willing, to run incursion classes :)

If you want feedback on class notes etc, feel free to contact me (or if it's more class-related than incursion-related, talk to our lovely teachers). I'd be more than happy to help and I'm sure they would be too.

Personally, I plan to tailor a post to inform the common unistas about this new option. It'll probably be a forum post, a corp mail or something similar (I'll discuss this with some higher ups). But that's when I've gotten all the information out there on our wiki and things prepared. So we don't end up with questions we can't answer just yet :)
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Jesse Xenoman

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Post 2017.12.31 18:02

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

I don't know much about the execution of incursions, but I'd be happy to teach a class about getting trained up for them and what to expect for new players. I could rattle off Incursions 101, but that's a little more in depth than I think is necessary since the class would be aimed at folks who won't be ready for a month or so. I'm imagining a 30 minute class that covers what an incursion is, why we should do it, spawn mechanics and ship movement, and minimum requirements.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.01.01 04:15

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Jesse Xenoman wrote:... but I'd be happy to teach a class about getting trained up for them and what to expect for new players. I could rattle off Incursions 101, but that's a little more in depth than I think is necessary since the class would be aimed at folks who won't be ready for a month or so. I'm imagining a 30 minute class that covers what an incursion is, why we should do it, spawn mechanics and ship movement, and minimum requirements.
Sounds good to me, by all means go for it. Feel free to drop a line if you want feedback on your material when you've got a rough outline on what you want to cover.

Like a told a fellow unista a while back, I'd prefer an introduction class to focus on three things:

We want them to feel welcome, we want them to find out how to get to us and we want them to get to use safely.

Having typed that and read it again, I realize of course that it omits the obvious "what are incursions" question, so I guess there are four things :)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.01.10 16:51

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:Personally, I plan to tailor a post to inform the common unistas about this new option. It'll probably be a forum post, a corp mail or something similar (I'll discuss this with some higher ups). But that's when I've gotten all the information out there on our wiki and things prepared. So we don't end up with questions we can't answer just yet :)
Finally got off my finely shaped buttocks and got some of the things fixed.

* Updated the skillplans on Preparing for Incursions.
* Updated the fits on Vanguard Incursion fits (also updated the fleet-up fit integrations).
* Updated the skill certificates and fits on Fleet-Up.

Left to do is updating some wordings here and there on the wiki and the forum, then post a mail :)
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Sin Tsukaya

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Post 2018.01.10 19:32

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Minimum Rokh firt: Do you consider the T2 target painters acceptable? The faction is 30m more, and obviously accessible to Alphas in a way the T2 isn't, but for isk-poor Omega players, it might be worth noting the option?
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.01.10 21:50

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Sin Tsukaya wrote:Minimum Rokh firt: Do you consider the T2 target painters acceptable? The faction is 30m more, and obviously accessible to Alphas in a way the T2 isn't, but for isk-poor Omega players, it might be worth noting the option?
As a general rule, no, I probably wouldn't. The target painter was introduced as a means to cut down on the cost of a double faction web fit to begin with, and while there isn't a huge difference in strength between a T2 painter and the faction one, it adds up, especially if you don't have high support skills.

But in case someone shows up with a Target Painter II and a high level in Signature Focusing, who says they'll upgrade after running a few sites ... I wouldn't make a fuss about it.
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Zeerse Solaris

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Post 2018.01.22 15:08

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Ok, I shall re-register as a teacher and get the current class slides so I can update and circulate.
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Zeerse Solaris

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Post 2018.01.27 13:25

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Update: I have got my teacher status back, updated (well, written a new set because previous versions weren't saved with edit rights by anyone other than the uploader :evil: ) the material with alpha DDs, and scheduled a first run at 19:00 8th Feb.

If someone wants to start picking up a US timezone I have made the slides public so you wouldn't have to commit to becoming a teacher. And I am happy to run through how I would run the class (slides are written in a style that means theres a reason for someone to expand and talk about the subjects rather than just read them out).
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.01.27 18:42

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

Thank you Zeerse :)
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Zeerse Solaris

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Post 2018.02.09 07:54

Re: Adjusting to and encouraging Alpha clones to do Incursions.

First class complete. About 38 attendees, some of those were experienced incursionists (thanks to them (Matt and Simone in particular) for the support with answers and links).

I plan to do it monthly, I suspect we need some momentum, assuming people join slack, mailing list etc in the next 24 hours following the class, resend the current focus mail, and if someone wants to get some pre-warning of some form up attempts to both too so they newbros will come :)
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