On being squishy...

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Stasia Ohau

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Post 2017.07.05 02:44

On being squishy...

Spent some time tonight trying to figure out what's going on with my shields.

Margeux's shield skills are pretty much at the recommended levels:
- EM Shield Compensation III
- Shield Emission Systems IV
- Shield Management IV
- Shield Operation IV
- Shield Upgrades IV
- Tactical Shield Manipuation IV

Her current fit has the following defensive modules:
- Pithum-B AIF
- DCU II
- Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I (rig)
- distinct lack of an EM Ward Amp

Using her current fit with the AIF (Pith-B) active she gets the following shield resists (pre-boost):
- 64% EM
- 61% Thermal
- 71% Kinetic
- 76% Explosive

I loaded her fit and stats into Pyfa and spent a couple hours questioning the author's heritage (about half unfair) and my sanity (mostly true). Here's what I learned:
- EM Shield Compensation doesn't do a thing for my current fit because I don't have an EM Ward Amplifier.
- Shield Management V will add 5% shield capacity but doesn't do anything for the resists. (17d.5h on current remap)
- Shield Operation V will improve the shield recharge rate by another 5% (5d.18h on current remap)
- The other skills, while important, don't directly affect shield capacity.
- For science purposes I simulated a Vindicator with my defense mods and came up with a slightly worse resist profile but about 4k more ehp. (78.4k vs. 83.1k)

Looking at the minimum fits on the wiki I noticed that they use a Large Anti-Therm rig and an EM Ward Amplifier II. If I drop one of her tracking computers for the Amp I get the following pre-boost resist profile:
- 70% EM
- 71% Thermal
- 71% Kinetic
- 76% Explosive

IMO -- and I could be way off-base here -- if this was a skills issue then the other newer folks should be having the same problem. While I'd hate to lose a tracking computer I'm beginning to suspect the missing Ward Amp. Thoughts or recommendations?

(And yes, I know her remap stinks)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.07.05 07:40

Re: On being squishy...

First of all, pre-boost numbers are not relevant as stacking penalties apply differently to the minimum fits vs the B-type variant.

But the thing isn't that you're squishier than minimum fits, you feel squishier than other people's B-type fits. It may very well just be in our heads, you know how you start thinking about something and you see it everywhere, thinking it's getting out of hand even though nothing has changed but your perspective? Perhaps that's what's happening here and there's no issue at all.

When you looked at skills, it's true the EM Shield Compensation skill is irrelevant (as you say, no EM amplifier), as is the Shield Operation one (passive recharge isn't a thing in incursions). The two that matter are Shield Management and Shield Rigging. Perhaps the signature bloom from not having Shield Rigging trained to reduce the signature penalty of the shield rig might explain the perceived extra damage.
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Stasia Ohau

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Post 2017.07.05 13:34

Re: On being squishy...

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:The two that matter are Shield Management and Shield Rigging. Perhaps the signature bloom from not having Shield Rigging trained to reduce the signature penalty of the shield rig might explain the perceived extra damage.

Oh that might be it. Shield Rigging is at 0. I'll chuck in I and II tonight and put a priority on III and IV.

BTW, Shield Rigging IV is only on the Recommended list for Logistics. Maybe Jury Rigging III (pre-req) and some amount of Shield Rigging should be added to the minimums or recommended lists for DD and OGB?
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.07.05 16:45

Re: On being squishy...

Stasia Ohau wrote:BTW, Shield Rigging IV is only on the Recommended list for Logistics. Maybe Jury Rigging III (pre-req) and some amount of Shield Rigging should be added to the minimums or recommended lists for DD and OGB?
It's a tough sell though, as it's not strictly needed for regular damage dealers. Sure, you might take a little bit more damage but it's not going to put you in jeopardy or anything like that. Perhaps on the further training part, as it will definitely help for assaults etc.

For OGB it's irrelevant, they do not use shield rigs.
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Stasia Ohau

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Post 2017.07.05 18:47

Re: On being squishy...

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:But the thing isn't that you're squishier than minimum fits, you feel squishier than other people's B-type fits. It may very well just be in our heads, you know how you start thinking about something and you see it everywhere, thinking it's getting out of hand even though nothing has changed but your perspective? Perhaps that's what's happening here and there's no issue at all.

I trust your "gut feelings" about things. When you say there might be a problem it's usually worth looking into. I did spend a pile of isk on the fit, it would be silly to be missing something simple. There have been enough comments from other logi to not reassess the overall fit or my training priority.

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:It's a tough sell though, as it's not strictly needed for regular damage dealers. Sure, you might take a little bit more damage but it's not going to put you in jeopardy or anything like that. Perhaps on the further training part, as it will definitely help for assaults etc.

Fair enough.

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:For OGB it's irrelevant, they do not use shield rigs.

Ha, you caught me being lazy. :lol:
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Rikki Bigg

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Post 2017.07.07 00:17

Re: On being squishy...

To continue the discussion, the B type fits are squishier* than the recommended starter fits. Once you add boosts, your resists across the board are lower. You do have more raw shield, assuming a pirate hull, than a t1 hull. Part of the assumption in the more advanced fits was players would be more comfortable to running, their tank, and especially overheating their invuln in a particularly sticky situation, as one of the huge advantages of the deadspace invulns is how well they overheat (and less stacking penalties).

Numbers:
Pithum A with faction Damage Control and T1 EM Screen, before boosts (for min/max example): 66.2/63.4/72.6/77.2
Same as above, after Shield Harmonizing Boost (with perfect boostser+implant): 70.4/70.3/77.7/81.4
Pithum B with T2 Invuln, T2 Damage Control, before boosts : 69.8/70.9/78.2/81.8
Pithum C (same as above, for completeness) before boosts: 68.2/69.3/77.0/80.8

If you do want to fly tankier, however (such as minimum numbers with high influence) rerigging to use your em amp, while not cost prohibitive (with t1 resist rigs at least) seems foolish. Instead just add a second T2 invuln, yes it will be stacking penalized severely, but it will push your resists above 70% across the board before boosts.

Your resists are lower with a B type setup, but the gain of an extra mid is worthwhile. There are some communities that fly with a B type and no damage control. Your EHP, however, is about the same as a higher resist T1 hull. Your shields will just appear to bounce more since reps are weaker as your resists get lower.

*resist-wise
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.07.07 09:48

Re: On being squishy...

Rikki Bigg wrote:Part of the assumption in the more advanced fits was players would be more comfortable to running, their tank, and especially overheating their invuln in a particularly sticky situation, as one of the huge advantages of the deadspace invulns is how well they overheat (and less stacking penalties).
If you mean the assumption that lead me to making B-type + DC + EM-rig perfectly fine and acceptable for our community, then that's almost but not quite true :)

The sole reason is that they [pirate battleships] have more buffer, lower signature and contribute more dps to the fleet thanks to the hulls being flat out better making it less subjectible to the initial maximum incoming dps, thus making up for the ~10% difference in turret damage that they take (which is the difference between the minimum fit EM/thermal resists vs the B-type variant).

People's experience is not factored in, nor are their ability to overheat more effectively, as this is a matter of ISK not experience. It would be foolish to assume that just because someone fits a B-type to their ship they are more experienced. That said, both of those arguments would help mitigate things, I'm just saying those are not factored in due to their unpredictable nature.
Rikki Bigg wrote:before boosts
None of the values before boosts are relevant, it's all about after boosts.
Rikki Bigg wrote:If you do want to fly tankier, however (such as minimum numbers with high influence) rerigging to use your em amp, while not cost prohibitive (with t1 resist rigs at least) seems foolish. Instead just add a second T2 invuln, yes it will be stacking penalized severely, but it will push your resists above 70% across the board before boosts.
The minimum and advanced fits are not unsafe to run at maximum influence and you certainly do not have to re-rig or fit a second invulnerability field to these ships. They are all designed to hold up even under maximum penalties to avoid having to refit for influence. Will you notice taking more damage when influence is low and the penalties high? Of course, but that's normal and to be expected for anyone, regardless if you fly the minimum fit or any of the advanced C-type or B-type variants.

If you run with so few people that tank is an issue, then you have a far more pressing issue -- lack of offense. Your fleet would be dangerous because it lacks the ability to quickly remove warp disrupt capable ships and high damage ships, not because it cannot facetank the whole wave indefinitely.

But we've had this discussion before :)

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