Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

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Logan Zauber

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Post 2017.06.13 14:48

Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

On the first site (Logan FC) yesterday we had a very odd thing happen- I'd like to document this event due to it's unexpected nature:

Lots of people ended up with PvP weapons timers:

1. Two Cap Buddies were both in Uni. One Cap Buddy shot the other. They got PvP Timers.
2. Tansari's Out-of-Corp Logi (safety set to green) got a PvP timer, too! (VERY unexpected!)
3. Other stuff.

If you have a clear recollection of what happened, please comment. I don't recall who or what some of the interesting circumstances were as the FC was being stress-tested by Mustang and Tansarii. They are training Jimmy to help fill that role. FC comments:

1. Mistake: Both Cap Buddies were Unistas, able to shoot each other with green safety. To repair the Buddies, Logi would need to trigger Yellow safety and incur SUSPECT TIMER for 15 minutes. Suspects may be shot on sight by anyone in New Eden. This was a "goof" by the Cap Buddies and an oversight by the FC; this FC is not familiar with Cap Chaining (because that's why Scimitars are the best and Nightmares are for someone else to fly) but I suppose eventually I need to get a ship that Cap Chains so I can learn about this in depth.

2. We were in an OTA. By the time we confirmed our situation we were in the second wave. FC decided it was safer to finish the site rather than extract at this point. It's maybe the worst time to try to extract, because the 3rd wave spawns "close" with warp disrupting ships.

3. Brave logi just goes suspect because that's what Logi does. Tansarii went suspect before he had a chance to go "safety yellow".

4. We sat out the timers in station, feeling very ISK Inefficient. It would have been much faster to take an extra minute to make sure our Cap Chain was proper. FC will remember to ask in the future, I know the lesson was not lost on those affected. As for ISK Efficiency, Logan looks at that as a metric for how smoothly the fleet is running; he enjoys when the fleet runs like a well-oiled machine. It's not the isk that makes it fun, it's the power of a practiced and organized team.

5. We made a mistake, we recovered safely and corrected. We eventually got our rhythm going and started melting sites, which is fun. Everyone in the fleet was running like a pro, even if we did mess up. It was Baethorn's first night as DD and the first sight went sideways. No big thang for him, and a big +1 to Baethorn who is a very solid fleet pilot.

Please add details- I think we found a brand new way to screw up!
LZ
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2017.06.13 14:58

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

I'd also like to apologize for not setting myself up correctly to be able to hit my mic button easier. This, quiet frankly, was a huge failure on my part as a picket. Yes, I did have a child in my arms in Real life, but I could have positioned her better to be able to key-up easier. Having to re-position a sleeping child so that I can use the mic, without waking her, I was overloaded.

Future picketing will be done without a a child in arms.
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Analiese Aubernet

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Post 2017.06.13 18:33

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

To clarify - did Tansari go suspect, or did he get the PvP logoff timer?
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Hespire Malneant

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Post 2017.06.13 18:38

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Analiese Aubernet wrote:To clarify - did Tansari go suspect, or did he get the PvP logoff timer?


He didn't go suspect. That's the confusing thing.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.06.14 06:50

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Logan Zauber wrote:Mistake: Both Cap Buddies were Unistas, able to shoot each other with green safety. To repair the Buddies, Logi would need to trigger Yellow safety and incur SUSPECT TIMER for 15 minutes. Suspects may be shot on sight by anyone in New Eden. This was a "goof" by the Cap Buddies and an oversight by the FC; this FC is not familiar with Cap Chaining (because that's why Scimitars are the best and Nightmares are for someone else to fly) but I suppose eventually I need to get a ship that Cap Chains so I can learn about this in depth.
Correct, this is why we don't run cap chains for two corp members, but make sure they are all of different corps.

There was no reason for this to happen, had the people too busy planning on how to stress test you paid more attention to what was actually happening they could have told you this before you even undocked and sorted out a better cap chain.

Logan Zauber wrote:We were in an OTA. By the time we confirmed our situation we were in the second wave. FC decided it was safer to finish the site rather than extract at this point. It's maybe the worst time to try to extract, because the 3rd wave spawns "close" with warp disrupting ships.
This is a common misconception and a false sense of "safety" in the first wave.

Yes, the second wave spawns further off compared to the third wave, but you should not exact a fleet from an OTA at all if you're relying on the spawn range of the enemies to get out. The only safe way to extract from the OTA is to have the entire fleet pre-aligned by the time the last ship dies spawning the next wave, and immediately warp out when it does. This will either work (if you do it right) or it won't (if you don't) ... whether it's the second or third wave that's spawning only matters if you're doing it wrong.

Logan Zauber wrote:Tansari's Out-of-Corp Logi (safety set to green) got a PvP timer, too! (VERY unexpected!)
First of all, you cannot do anything that'll make you go go suspect while having green safeties, the only thing that can happen is if you've got a killright on you that someone activates (which will turn you suspect). Inheriting a capsuleer log-off timer is not a legal issue in and by itself.

Second, I've noticed several times that the general mechanics of remote assistance inheriting all the timers kicks in before the legality check is done, meaning Tansarii inherited the timers of the unista he tried repairing, before his green safeties stopped the rep from actually going through.

For more info on the legality issues of being at war and having a capsuleer log-off timer, see Remote_assistance#While at war.
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Grune Jaeger

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Post 2017.06.15 01:15

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Hespire Malneant wrote:
Analiese Aubernet wrote:To clarify - did Tansari go suspect, or did he get the PvP logoff timer?


He didn't go suspect. That's the confusing thing.

From the view of an out-of-corp and out-of-fleet alt, he was NOT suspect (NOT flashy in local).
He also was adamant that he had green safeties and never switched to yellow.
His logi bots were repping the uni logi which had repped the uni pilot(s) in the limited engagement. I believe that's where his flag came from - but not a suspect flag.
The fleet acted as if he had went suspect, but that seemed to just be an overabundance of caution.

Also, the reason we ended up with the uni cap chain was that Grune was in a nightmare ready to cap chain. Then, just before the fleet started, we had another ranged pilot x-up and the decision was made to switch Grune to Vindicator. When I switched, I was concentrating on changing clones and ship fits to get Vindy out in space. The new cap chain was a quickly thrown together - too quickly.
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Rustled Jimmy

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Post 2017.06.17 00:24

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

I can't add anything to the topic at hand as I know little enough about the mechanics compared to you all anyway but in regards to the "stress testing" I do enjoy the friendly banter with Mustang but I know FC is very stressful. If you ever want me to shush Logan you can just mention, I'll keep in mind when you are FCing to not be a bother over comms.
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Ann'Dra Padecain

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Post 2017.06.18 10:57

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Hi,

In Saturday's fleet after downtime, we had one logi disconnect. The recommended drill was quickly executed - abandon combat-drones, launch shield maintenance bots & target fleet-member with visible shield-damage who also happened to be a uni-member with friendly fire permitted (I know, wrong order).

Immediately afterwards I was quite sure that I shot one volley at the targeted uni-member by mistake, which led to me receiving a Capsuleer Log-Off Timer. Subsequent attempts from logi to rep me would have led to logi receiving a suspect-timer and I ended up parked in station for 15min.

But now I wonder whether me letting shield-bots "attack" the uni fleet-member may have caused the Capsuleer Log-Off Timer. If so, then is something I would have to keep in mind every time I "repair" somebody in fleet. Anybody ever test this?
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.06.18 11:40

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Ann'Dra Padecain wrote:Immediately afterwards I was quite sure that I shot one volley at the targeted uni-member by mistake, which led to me receiving a Capsuleer Log-Off Timer. Subsequent attempts from logi to rep me would have led to logi receiving a suspect-timer and I ended up parked in station for 15min.
Logistics wouldn't just go suspect, with green safeties the reps would simply not activate. It would force the logi to turn their safeties to yellow in order to rep, which would in turn make them suspect as it's a suspect-offence. Minor distinction, but quite important.

Ann'Dra Padecain wrote:But now I wonder whether me letting shield-bots "attack" the uni fleet-member may have caused the Capsuleer Log-Off Timer. If so, then is something I would have to keep in mind every time I "repair" somebody in fleet. Anybody ever test this?
No, logistics maintenance bots don't "attack" even though they use the same shortcut and commands normal combat drones use.
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Lexara Ellecon

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Post 2017.06.18 12:09

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Ann'Dra the recommended drill is: (which from now on I think I'll go over it everytime I undock as FC)

1) Lock the logi, which suppose to be the person on top of your watchlist this operation takes the most time
2) Abandon your drone and launch the shield drones
3) Make your shield bots "attack" the logi
4) Then you must UNLOCK the logi and continue shooting sansha

Putting the bots on the one taking the most damage is only when we have a 2 logi diconnect and someone is taking heavy damage. (Someone correct me if'im wrong)

The reason for that is logi CAN"T rep himself and with one logi he relies on fleet to get his reps if he gets aggro

What happened most likely is you didn't unlock the logi and selected somethig to shoot and then that thing died and since the logi was in-corp (Logan) the volley went to Logan instead tht's why you got the timer.

I was FC'ing while this happened (it was my first time dealing with a logi disconnect Mustang handled calmly while I was fumbling around to abandon my drones) we discovered this in the next site while Lucius was trying to give you links so I had you dock till your timer ran out; which I think was the corect thing to do since you didn't have aggro at the time. If you had aggro the logi would have needed to to go yellow safeties and we had to clear the warp disruptive ships and dock.

I would really appreciate any feedback (especially negative on the incedent)
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Ann'Dra Padecain

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Post 2017.06.18 16:44

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Hi,
both logis had their safeties on green and were not able to apply rep's to me on the next site. That's how we found out that I had a timer against me.

But I did not realise/understand that I need to unlock my buddies after applying the shield-drones.

Will keep that in mind if ever needed again.

Thank you all.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.06.18 17:29

Re: Wierd PvP Timer Event... no lives lost- lets figure this out

Ann'Dra Padecain wrote:But I did not realise/understand that I need to unlock my buddies after applying the shield-drones.

Will keep that in mind if ever needed again.
It's one of those "technically not necessary, but practically the best way".

It boils down to the fact that you can shoot at target X on your screen and end up activating your guns/webs/painter on target Y (which could be your friendly neighbourhood logi if you have him locked up) through no fault of your own. This is because if your current target, that you activated your modules on, is dead by the time your client checks with the game, it'll follow through on your next target in line.

So by unlocking the logi after you put bots on them, the logi is no longer locked (but the bots will continue repping them) and thus you cannot accidentally hit them :)

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