What I Learned Today in Incursions

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Comeonnnnnn Sparassid

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Post 2018.03.13 01:59

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Hello Cassiel
Thank you very much for the feedback! it is very much appreciated!

you are absolutely right about keeping the fleet together, I learnt that in the second night of my FCing adventures!
And thank you very much for the link regarding targeting order. I used it to fine tune my understanding of the NMC sites as well as the other sites linked in the page!

But last night, I got the first chance to be an FC from the very start to the finish and this is what I learnt:
1. I generally start off a bit weak and it takes me a couple sites to get into the swing of things. Once I'm comfortable, everything just goes much smoother. So I should probably be more attentive during the first few sites to make sure I'm not messing anything up
2. It is alright to sometimes warp the fleet if a couple acolytes are left on the field, but if the logi's T2 shield bots are lost, we need to stop and get them back. I learnt that the hard way.... Fortunately, someone in fleet had quick thinking and fast fingers, so they dropped a bookmark right as I warped the fleet away.
3. The art of warping the fleet right as we receive pay-out. AKA preemptive warping. I have a good handle on this and have yet to mess this up..... Hope that never changes
4a. We had a criminal/WT pop into the picket system and I got to learn what to do the fast way. Since we were in the last wave of an OTA, we shot everything and I had the fleet sit inside the pocket. That way, if someone did decide to pay us a visit, we would have a gate to be a buffer between us.
4b. In the same line of gankers/WTs coming into system, I learnt from more experienced FCs that I should be wary about taking the fleet to the station in our mail. The gankers could have intel on where we would dock up and could set a trap for us there. An alternative would be to warp to a citadel and tether up so that we can't be targeted and dock up if we are risk of being bumped off.

PS - I got a Pith B, so I'm finally useful!
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.03.13 02:33

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:4a. We had a criminal/WT pop into the picket system and I got to learn what to do the fast way. Since we were in the last wave of an OTA, we shot everything and I had the fleet sit inside the pocket. That way, if someone did decide to pay us a visit, we would have a gate to be a buffer between us.
4b. In the same line of gankers/WTs coming into system, I learnt from more experienced FCs that I should be wary about taking the fleet to the station in our mail. The gankers could have intel on where we would dock up and could set a trap for us there. An alternative would be to warp to a citadel and tether up so that we can't be targeted and dock up if we are risk of being bumped off.
Why stop at hiding behind an accelerator? Tethering is a simple solution to avoid any and all risks for an ambush, as you can just warp to it and you'll immediately be tethered and able to dock if need be. I recommend using that over staying in the pocket. There's no reason to remain in the site when you can be 100% safe tethered up on an Upwell structure. That way you avoid any and all potential problems with people accidentally shooting triggers or whatever else might happen, despite how unlikely.

An insta-dock for a station also works, it'll allow you to warp the fleet to the insta-dock instead of the general "slightly off" the docking ring warp-in. It doesn't have the added benefit of automatically being tethered, but it'll allow people to dock up right away instead of the risk of needing to slowboat a little bit.

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:PS - I got a Pith B, so I'm finally useful!
You were always useful, now you're just more useful with a couple of more utility midslots! :)
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Comeonnnnnn Sparassid

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Post 2018.03.14 21:45

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Hey Cass
You bring up a great point about hiding behind the accelerator. Would it be acceptable to do that while we are assessing the situation? Sometimes there is a lone WT that has strayed to the picket system. I think in that case, it would be fine to hide within the pocket to see how the situation progresses. I am hoping that the WT leaves in a minute or two in this situation though.

We also had a small jump scare last night while I was FCing where someone said "break-break" (instant palm sweat and adrenaline rush with a hint of panic) and the topic of what to do if a WT shows up came up again.
I have a decent understanding of what to do if a WT shows up in most sites like NCOs and NMCs. But I am a bit unsure about the OTAs.
If WT threat is during the first wave of OTA, my plan would be: J tag the deltole, kill everything else (except eysters), when all frigates die align the ships towards the station, tell fleet to do full attack on deltole including drones, right as deltole dies, warp fleet away! my hope is that we will be able to get away since the second wave will be a little far off and wont have a chance to lock on to us just yet.
As for the second wave of an OTA.... I honestly have no idea... The same plan wont work because the rats spawn much closer and would be able to scram a couple of our ships before the warp.... Any advice on how to deal with this situation?

But coming back to your point about an instadock
I think I will have one or two instadock bookmarks saved from the next focus onwards

But it was great being an FC on teaching Tuesday again!
Ive been learning quite a lot but am still a bit nervous during the first few sites
The biggest thing I need to work on is figuring out gate statuses. I think I was 0 for 3/4 last night, and almost lost Kale's nightmare
I hope that understanding this stuff will come with experience since I am still green and dont yet have a "feel" for the speeds of different fleets
I should also thank Logan Zauber for this link which helps me get the fleet off the ground without forgetting anything. Gonna leave it here for other aspiring FCs!
https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/FC_VG_Cribsheet


PS Vindi + Pith B + T2 Guns + 2 Webs + Glorious Boosts = 4 Legged Dog
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.03.15 06:24

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:You bring up a great point about hiding behind the accelerator. Would it be acceptable to do that while we are assessing the situation? Sometimes there is a lone WT that has strayed to the picket system. I think in that case, it would be fine to hide within the pocket to see how the situation progresses. I am hoping that the WT leaves in a minute or two in this situation though.
Can it work? Sure. But my point is that it's better to simply not put yourself at risk and take the fleet to safety.

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:We also had a small jump scare last night while I was FCing where someone said "break-break" (instant palm sweat and adrenaline rush with a hint of panic) and the topic of what to do if a WT shows up came up again.
Aye, please only use "break-break" when it's war target related. If you feel the need to silence people, you can use "check-check".

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:I have a decent understanding of what to do if a WT shows up in most sites like NCOs and NMCs. But I am a bit unsure about the OTAs.
In theory, they are all the same; you kill off all the warp disrupt capable frigates, start aligning to the station or upwell structure of choice, finish off any warp disrupt capable cruisers or battleships. Once the last warp disrupt capable ship dies, you warp the fleet away.

What makes the OTA a little tricky is that the margins are smaller, as the last warp disrupt capable ship spawns the next wave (which isn't the case for the other sites), but again it's still the same principle for getting out. What you need to ensure though is that you give people enough time to fully align before killing the Deltole and that you warp away immediately as it does.

In the first wave you got a little bit more leeway as the second wave spawns outside immediate warp disrupt range, so if people aren't quite aligned they will most likely make it out anyway. As the wave spawns, it takes them a few seconds to start aggressing and then sometimes a few more seconds to get within warp disrupt range.

In the second wave, the leeway is more or less cut down to mere seconds, as they will be within warp disrupt range as soon as they lock you up. A ship that didn't align at all will definitely be caught in this scenario. A ship that isn't fully align runs a greater risk at getting caught here as well.

So my recommendation is to keep it simple and focus on telling people what to do, keep repeating what to do and don't worry so much about tagging or telling people what not to do. Also I recommend that if you feel overwhelmed, don't bother shooting yourself. It's far more important you tell the other 10 people in fleet what to do, than for you to be 100% effective yourself in shooting.

Something like this (the exact wording isn't important):

- Alright, listen up!
- Full fleet, Tama, Tama, Tama.
- Keep killing Tamas, lock up the Augas.
- Full fleet, Auga, Auga, Auga.
- Keep killing Augas, lock up the Deltole.
- Align to the station, align to the station (this is important, start aligning before shooting the Deltole).
- Full fleet, Deltole, Deltole, Deltole.
- Keep aligning to the station, align to the station.
... then when the Deltole dies, you warp the fleet.

If you have the presence of mind, by all means use insta-dock bookmarks, but not at the expense of delaying your warp off. I recommend you just warp to 0 to the station or go for an Upwell structure. The important thing is to get the fleet out safely. If people need to slowboat a little to reach the docking ring due to a bad landing on the station, that's usually fine. Even if they get ambushed by the war targets, they're very likely to make it long enough to dock up.

Note how the align must come before you start killing the Deltole. This is because most fleets are unlikely to push more than 10k dps, which means it'll take close to 20 seconds to kill the Deltole. This gives even the slowest of Maelstroms and Rokhs enough time to align, assuming they start doing so before you start shooting the Deltole.
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Xafen Katapi

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Post 2018.03.15 15:18

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Aha! Glad I found this thread. I'll post a lot more later on as I've been helping out (picket/scout) for more than a week now.

One thingon WT's. Theoretically you should have maybe 30-45 seconds warning they're incoming? If the scout's are on top of things, they'll first see the WT come into the border system, WT then has to warp across that system, load in then warp to you. They're probably warping directly to w/e gate you're on as they probably already scouted where you were on an alt.

Is that rough 30-45 seconds lead time to get safe correct?
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.03.15 16:22

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Xafen Katapi wrote:Aha! Glad I found this thread. I'll post a lot more later on as I've been helping out (picket/scout) for more than a week now.
Good, because feedback from new people is how we know what we should work on.

Xafen Katapi wrote:One thingon WT's. Theoretically you should have maybe 30-45 seconds warning they're incoming? If the scout's are on top of things, they'll first see the WT come into the border system, WT then has to warp across that system, load in then warp to you. They're probably warping directly to w/e gate you're on as they probably already scouted where you were on an alt.

Is that rough 30-45 seconds lead time to get safe correct?
In very fast ships, that's certainly possible, interceptors could cut the time down to 30 seconds to jump into the system, warp to the site, take the acceleration gate and land on grid ... but most ships of any serious threat would be far slower than that.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as the method of getting out remains the same. The only exception would be if they somehow managed to get on grid and point someone before you can warp away. At that point you'd have to make a judgement call if staying and fighting it out is more beneficial than cutting your losses. Your own PvP-experience here is of course important, but also how well and how quickly the fleet responds to your commands should be taken into consideration.
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Mols Halleck

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Post 2018.03.16 04:12

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

I have been running incursions for around 2 - 3 months, but today I was tagger for the first time, it's a bit easier than I thought and gives me something else to do apart from shooting rats, I will probably request tagger role for a few more nights and maybe then I'll find the courage to make the jump into FC, we also had a Logi disconnect drill that went fine in my opinion (no one died), it was a great opportunity to learn about it.
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Reembody

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Post 2018.03.16 04:37

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

After skill injecting myself into Logi two weekends ago I finally had my first night as Logi that lasted for more then a handful of sites.

Its super exciting I would recommend everyone to start this in their queue!

Really it was more interesting then I would expect because the calm nature of vanguard logi it allowed someone like me who is new to logi in eve the time to observe . Like how the remote shield boosters are front load in their response and getting a feel for how little I need to actually Rep to both keep my agro low and keeps RSB open to shift for target swaps.
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Comeonnnnnn Sparassid

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Post 2018.03.17 00:49

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Today was very exciting for the newbro FC
I had my first leeroy and my first logi drill (lots of sweaty palms)
First: the leeroy
it wasnt too bad, luckily we had logi Ls and boosts so we ran in after him, but still a bit terrifying
Next: the logi drill
Normally the FC is told if there is gonna be a logi disconnect drill, but this was a surprise for me (which i appreciate since it lets me know where i can improve)
I didn't do a bad job, but theres a number of things i can improve on
1. tell everyone to lock up the remaining log. if they cant lock it up because of targeting too many rats, i need to remind them to untarget 1 rat. call the remaining logi out by name so that there is no confusion as to who the remaining logi is
2. tell everyone to stop shooting
3. abandon combat drones and deploy logi bots
4. J tag the appropriate things and let everyone know of the J tag
5. ask everyone to sit on their hands for a second while i remember to breathe
6. individually tag stuff for the fleet to shoot together so that we can get rid of the scram/danger ships
7. warp fleet out of site safely!

In our case it was a drill, so we completed the site. I got a lot of feedback from the veterans in the fleet, so there's a number of things i can work on!
Learning more everyday!
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.03.17 01:52

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:1. tell everyone to lock up the remaining log. if they cant lock it up because of targeting too many rats, i need to remind them to untarget 1 rat. call the remaining logi out by name so that there is no confusion as to who the remaining logi is
To simplify this, we have this praxis of putting both of the logi on top of our watch list. Because this means the top person on your watch list will be the remaining logi and you'll not have to worry about what their name is. You simply start locking the first person on the watch list, instead of trying to find them in the overview or some other place where it's not as readily available or in such a pre-determined place.

Unlocking something, for those who might not know, can be done with a shortcut of using Ctrl + Shift + Left Click. Depending on how you usually do things this might be a much faster way than going through the right-click context menu.

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:7. warp fleet out of site safely!
Something we seldom mention is "What happens when they log back in?" ... well, they either log back in and find themselves landing on the acceleration gate, or landing back inside the incursion site. The later is quite unpleasant if the fleet has already warped away, so whenever someone disconnects and you've warped the fleet away, have them hold off on logging in until the situation is resolved.

At some point you might be seasoned enough to remain calm and collected, able to assess this situation as it happens. Perhaps the wave isn't dangerous at all and you'll easily handle it with your remaining logi and bots, wave is trimmed and you can safely tank the remaining non-disrupt capable ships on grid, no risk of spawning a new wave and you simply wait out the other logi reconnecting. But it's always better to be safe than sorry.

Comeonnnnnn Sparassid wrote:Learning more everyday!
And you're making my day by sharing, so that others benefit from your experiences as well :)
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Lunaria Veil (Biomassed 2018.04.15)

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Post 2018.03.23 14:31

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Today (well technically last night) I learned why Null isn't as good as Navy Antimatter in some situations, for lots of frigates and such as well as being at close(er) range. Wish I had known all that about 3 foci ago so I didn't use up so much Null :)

One of these days when I am feeling particularly rich I will grab a Machariel and see how that fits me. I can't use T2 autocannons but I would welcome a new experience with a new ship as well.

Keep on learnin'!!
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Ann'Dra Padecain

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Post 2018.03.24 04:26

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

My understanding is that you use Void instead of Null/Navy Antimatter if you can use T2 guns.
Antimatter has -50% range penalty, Void only -25% but with much higher DPS. I believe Void is also significantly cheaper than Navy Antimatter...

Only finished T2 training yesterday, so only able to test my understanding today... If wrong, please correct me... :P
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.03.24 12:29

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Ann'Dra Padecain wrote:My understanding is that you use Void instead of Null/Navy Antimatter if you can use T2 guns.
Antimatter has -50% range penalty, Void only -25% but with much higher DPS. I believe Void is also significantly cheaper than Navy Antimatter...

Only finished T2 training yesterday, so only able to test my understanding today... If wrong, please correct me... :P
Misinformed perhaps, or taken out of context for vanguards. We recommend antimatter over void.

For a more in-depth explanation, see Comparison: Antimatter vs Void (and bonus Null appearance).
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Comeonnnnnn Sparassid

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Post 2018.03.26 21:04

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

I forgot to post this before...
But I had my first chance to give the newbro speech!
Shoutout to Xafen Katapi and Edwin Clough for bearing with me through that and not drifting off....

There was also some competition in the system and I almost had the chance to FC my first contest (read: preparing to lose in silence)
Fortunately, our scout was too intimidating in his hecate, and they ran away
They then proceeded to hide in the station since we were just that intimidating

Learning more everyday!
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Leitsu Honam

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Post 2018.03.29 04:12

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

I have been flying as a Hyperion for a few nights now, and I have learned about what makes EVE such a great game.

The thing is, I'm usually the only T1 battleship, while everyone else is in a pirate hull. Despite this, I still feel like I'm contributing something, and that's the beauty of it.

It doesn't matter what your hull is. Fly with the incursion community and they'll let you help out because, in the end, your guns do matter.
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