Want to join after the Alpha changes

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Alcius

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Post 2017.12.12 12:28

Want to join after the Alpha changes

Hey all,

since the last weeks patch - and the current discussion about Alphas - I am skillwise capable to participate in fleets. Now I´ve checked the current fittings on the wiki and would start with the Hyperion first, since all my skills are maxed out for this (as far as Alphas go). Since it´s been quite some time since I was in an Incursion fleet and a few things changed in EVE as well, I have some questions.

1. Regarding the fit, the "Sensor Booster II" and the "Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot I" cannot be used (by Alphas). Do you recommend it to just downgrade to the next useable item? Or is there a faction alternative which is prefered/more desirable? Or should even something completely different be fitted?

2. Should only "Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L" charges be used or is it advised to stock up on long range ammo as well (which)?

3. What would be the OPTIMAL progession pirate faction ship for the current alpha state: Vindi, Mach or Nightmare? I want to determine which will the best possible outcome as an Alpha and therefore decide if I would stick to the Vindi next or crosstrain to one of the other ships.

4. In regard of DD Implants, do the recommandations from https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Incursio ... d_implants apply as well? So to use the highest possible by alphas? And do they differ depending on the choosen ship (e.g. Vindi vs. Nightmare)?

5. Are there more or less regular EU time fleets and if so at which EVE times do they usually happen? Or should I just keep an Eye on the Incursion Slack channels?

6. Besides the wiki Incursion pages, anything else I should be aware of?

Currently it makes not too much sense for me to resub, because I´m quite occupied by Life Offline, but would be happy to make it back again.
Many thanks in advance.

Alcius
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.13 12:11

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

This ended up in yet another long-winded "Cassiel"-post, but I hope you make it through it and that all the information is relevant :)

Alcius wrote:1. Regarding the fit, the "Sensor Booster II" and the "Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot I" cannot be used (by Alphas). Do you recommend it to just downgrade to the next useable item? Or is there a faction alternative which is prefered/more desirable? Or should even something completely different be fitted?
My initial idea is to simply replace the sensor booster with a normal tech one meta 1 sensor booster (the one focusing on strength) and the heavy maintenance bots for the Hyperion and Vindicator to medium repair bots with a mention that Omega pilots should train Repair Drone Operation III and get heavy bots.

Alcius wrote:2. Should only "Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L" charges be used or is it advised to stock up on long range ammo as well (which)?
As the fits suggests, Caldari Navy and Federation Navy Antimatter is preferred. There's no benefit to long range tech one ammo for blaster boats due to how the scaling is in terms of raw dps lost vs range gained. The only time long range ammo would be better than short range would be to hit the Mara. But in that scenario, the solution isn't to use long range ammo on blasters if you don't have anyone able to hit the Mara, but instead switch one or two people over to railguns to remedy the problem.

So as the fits themselves suggest, there's no need to bring anything but the faction antimatter if you have tech one guns. The only course of upgrade in terms of damage for an alpha would be faction damage guns and mods to help improve either damage output or application.

Alcius wrote:3. What would be the OPTIMAL progession pirate faction ship for the current alpha state: Vindi, Mach or Nightmare? I want to determine which will the best possible outcome as an Alpha and therefore decide if I would stick to the Vindi next or crosstrain to one of the other ships.
First of all, we accept and welcome any of those. Feel free to favour one of them for whatever reason you'd like (be that effectiveness, looks, price or whatever appeals to you).

Second, if you're taking a step back and look at it objectively, from a purely efficient point of view: The way we run incursions in vanguards means that the bonuses from the Vindicator (strong webs, high damage and good application at short-medium range) and Nightmare (tons of utility midslots for better applied damage and flexibility, ability to use long range weapons and maintain good tracking) make them objectively better suited and more efficient ships. What makes the Machariel stand out is largely unutilized in our fleets, since they cater more to fast warping, alpha strikes etc, which are more contest oriented.

And if I understand your question correctly, you're not just asking in general but specifically what you can get the most out of as an alpha. For that, I would argue that the Nightmare has the highest potential, since you can overcome some of the limitations of being an alpha (not able to max all skills, not able to use tech two guns, doesn't have room for heavy bots anyway etc); You have plenty of midslots to upgrade to deadspace and faction modules to increase your efficiency. You can use faction tachyon beams to get the range projection and still maintain adequate tracking thanks to the ship bonus and in no small part due to the fact tachyons (as a long range weapon system) has a much higher base tracking compared to railguns and even more compared to artillery. So even if you're unable to use tech two guns and crystals, you're still able to compensate for some of it.

That is not to say that an alpha Vindicator is bad, they still get to train Minmatar Battleship IV and get 82,5% webs which are amazing still (even if 90% is better). But they will somehow be limited in their medium range projection due to the lack of tech two guns and Null. Fleets still benefit greatly from bonused webs, so they

When it comes to the Machariel, the loss of tech two guns isn't that detrimental for our community. That's because we don't run those long range competition fleets with artillery, but rather the more sustained dps-oriented and better applied autocannon fits. The tech two autocannon ammo isn't very useful for vanguard incursions. Hail is useless due to the tracking and range loss and barrage is so limited in its use that the reload time negates the situational benefit most of the time.

In short, everyone and especially alpha clones, get a great upswing in efficiency (which leads to safer and more efficient fleets) from upgrading to pirate hulls.

Alcius wrote:4. In regard of DD Implants, do the recommandations from https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Incursio ... d_implants apply as well? So to use the highest possible by alphas? And do they differ depending on the choosen ship (e.g. Vindi vs. Nightmare)?
Alphas start with Cybernetics I but can train up to Cybernetics III which allows for the use of +3% or +4% implants (as well as the +3 attribute implants for skilltraining). So the recommendations will be the same except they cannot get the high-end implants, which we do not require although encourage people to get if they end up liking incursions as a means of getting ISK.

Alcius wrote:5. Are there more or less regular EU time fleets and if so at which EVE times do they usually happen? Or should I just keep an Eye on the Incursion Slack channels?
Regular times change over time based on people coming and going in the community. But overall, most of the EU related fleets happen in or around 18-22:00 EVE-time, the US fleets in and around 02-06:00 EVE-time and while we haven't had a strong oceanic group for a while, usually effort is done from time to time to get fleets running after downtime at 12-13:00 EVE-time on weekends. Give or take an hour or so.

Alcius wrote:6. Besides the wiki Incursion pages, anything else I should be aware of?
The way I designed the information the wiki is somewhat in line with this old Chinese proverb:

Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.
With that I wrote the wiki as a way for people to read up on things, so that they can come with at least a notion of what's going to happen. Then when they run with us we'll show them what it's like, which will remind them of what they read. Then we'll get people more and more involved, which will spark them to either ask more, learn more, read more of the wiki (which is also there for further delving into the inner workings of incursions or just game mechanics).

Naturally we understand that people learn in a multitude of ways, so if you're more of a hands-on kind of person that likes a dive off the deep end and "see how it goes" we'll do our best to help teach you as well. Just let us know, especially if we refer you to the wiki and you know that's not the best way for you. But do give it a try first, there's no harm in trying.

The key is to just tell us what you've read up on and we'll adjust accordingly. Remember that the wiki is a tool we use, both to help give people concise and guiding information, but also as a way to not risk missing something or forgetting something. So when we refer to the wiki it's not because we're lazy, but because it usually does a better job explaining things and it puts you in touch with the wonderful source of information that is the wiki ... for the future! :)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.13 12:14

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

Oh ... and someone recommended we make a page specifically for alpha clones and incursions, which I thought was a good idea. So I'll probably work out an additional page that we'll refer to for alpha pilots past the "what do I train to get into incursions" (which will be the same for everyone). That page would then include things to consider as an alpha, both in terms of additional skills worth training, upgrades, limitations, progression into Omega for those curious etc.
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Alcius

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Post 2017.12.14 08:55

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

Thank you Cassiel for the detailed answers.
I´ve gathered all modules etc. together and I´m ready to run.

Maybe I´ll manage to buy a Serpentis Sensor Booster, to fully compensate the T II one.

Regarding the pirate faction ships, to sum it up basically that means that Nightmare > Vindicator > Machariel ALTHOUGH they all are all very close to each other. I guess I´ll run the sites and while gathering the ISK I´ll decide which one I will pick :)
I asume that it would be wiser to get the ship asap prior to upgrading the modules to faction variants.

Thanks o/
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.14 12:16

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

Alcius wrote:Regarding the pirate faction ships, to sum it up basically that means that Nightmare > Vindicator > Machariel ALTHOUGH they all are all very close to each other.
It's a little bit more complicated than that, as the first couple of Vindicators are always going to be more effective than Nightmares, but once you have those, the Nightmare will be more efficient to fill up the fleet etc.

Remember that this is just me answering questions about efficiency though. This is min/maxing stuff we don't care so much about when we form fleets. When a fleet forms, we take people in the order they x up when they are ready. It doesn't matter what ship you're flying (tech one of faction) as long as you're meeting our minimum requirements. But sometimes we do encounter veteran players with multiple ships, and they can then pick the ship that best compliments our current fleet composition.

Alcius wrote:I guess I´ll run the sites and while gathering the ISK I´ll decide which one I will pick :)
Sounds like a good plan to me :)

Alcius wrote:I asume that it would be wiser to get the ship asap prior to upgrading the modules to faction variants.
Yes, see upgrade priorities for some more guidance.
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Sin Tsukaya

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Post 2017.12.14 17:46

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

Something to consider: I loved the idea of the Nightmare, skilled into it, got it all ready to go... and *really* didn't get on with the crystal-swapping; I think it's just the UI limitations, but I found it the exact opposite of relaxing to play.

Spent a bit extracting and re-injecting into the Vindi, and it was one of the better decisions I've made in my EVE career. (Particular relevance to HQs here, because there's some more interesting movement involved).

Can't agree enough with the idea of flying the ship you get on with, rather than the one that is absolutely the best on paper.

(Also, personal opinion, but the difference that the first couple of vindis makes is *so much* bigger than the difference that a nightmare's extra mid makes that I'd rather see more vindis, just because of the times they *are* relevant - and the relevance to pushing fleets up into viability, as opposed to improving already-viable ones.)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.12.14 21:56

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

Sin Tsukaya wrote:Something to consider: I loved the idea of the Nightmare, skilled into it, got it all ready to go... and *really* didn't get on with the crystal-swapping; I think it's just the UI limitations, but I found it the exact opposite of relaxing to play.
Not going to be a problem for Alpha Nightmares ... faction Tachyons, Imperial Navy Multifrequency Crystals ... shoot until they are all dead :)
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Alcius

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Post 2018.01.12 16:05

Re: Want to join after the Alpha changes

So yesterday was the first time to run some sites after a looooong time of absence to incursioning for me. I have to get used to it again and relearn the kill orders again, but was a great and well performing fleet. So hopefully I can manage to participate more often and be able to save up to the Vindi.
I somehow miss logiing though ;)

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