What I Learned Today in Incursions

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Decklin Quark Reiger

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Post 2017.08.06 18:31

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

So, today in Incursions, we had a couple of "funky" scenarios that provided learning opportunities:

1. Logi with a Capsuleer log-off timer.

Background:
Two Scimitar Logi (one Uni - Logan, and one not - Torg)
Uni Sleipnir (Decklin)
Two nightmares - both cap stable, not cap-chaining, and (I think) non-uni.

During the first wave of an NCO, Logan and Decklin both inherited a non-capsuleer log-off timer from one of our fleetmates. This meant that Torg wasn't able to assign his logi drones to Logan. Decklin called for the fleet to abandon their combat drones and assign logi bots to Logan. However, the instruction I gave began with, "Right click on your capacitor, click abaondon drones..." etc.. This instruction was incorrect, since you have to abandon your drones using the drone window (by right-clicking on the group of drones in space). While I was realising this, we tagged one Euyster J.

Meanwhile, Ersin was taking aggro, and at least one of our logi was focused on the issue with the timer, and didn't get drones on Ersin right away. We did call attention on comms to Ersin needing more reps, and our logi caught him at about 75% armour. We cleared the rest of the wave (except for tag J, and waited in site for the non-capsuleer timer to expire. We pulled our drones in, to ensure they couldn't agress the tag J)

We aren't quite sure what caused the initial timer, since we had no nightmare cap chain, and there wasn't really any reason for anyone other than logi to even have anyone locked. However, I can only imagine it must have been one uni pilot attacking another accidentally.

However, once the incident was stable, we reviewed the correct procedure for dealing with a logi DC or similar:

1. FC calls for the DD ships to lock up the logi / whoever needs reps - do this first, since it takes time to lock.
2. FC calls for DD to abandon combat drones (right-click in the drone window).
3. FC calls for DD to launch and assign logi bots to who needs it.

Anyway guys, good job not panicking, and good discipline to not kill the tag J.

2. The second learning opportunity happened a little later, when we had a DC:

Laser disconnected just as we were leaving a site, and in warp to the next one. His voice comms were very interrupted (sounded like packet loss to me). As we exited warp, we could see that his ship was no longer in fleet. At the same time, we were having one sniper drop, and a second one join us at this site, so I initially called for everyone to hold on the gate (partly to make sure Laser was okay, and partly to allow our newcomer to join us on grid and get boosts). However, Laser's vindicator started taking the gate the moment it exited warp. We had both logi on grid, so I called for the fleet to go in.

We went in, tagged an Eystur J, got reps on Laser, and killed the rest of the room. Laser eventually did e-warp away (but then came back in - was able to speak on Mumble, but dc'd in-game and e-warped again). Here, we just kept our calm, and when Laser was able to connect properly he warped off safely. The main thing that was important here was keeping our calm and getting reps on Laser quickly, so we kept him stable even though his hardeners may not have been active. Good job logi :)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.08.06 22:08

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:During the first wave of an NCO, Logan and Decklin both inherited a non-capsuleer log-off timer from one of our fleetmates.
I think you mean the capsuleer log-off timer ... the non-capsuleer log-off timer is harmless and everyone has that since we're fighting NPCs.

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:We aren't quite sure what caused the initial timer, since we had no nightmare cap chain, and there wasn't really any reason for anyone other than logi to even have anyone locked. However, I can only imagine it must have been one uni pilot attacking another accidentally.
Technically any corp members with friendly fire allowed can cause a capsuleer log-off timer, which when given to Logan would mean he'd be at war with a capsuleer log-off timer, which would in stop the non-uni logi from repping with green safeties.

The capsuleer log-off timer doesn't have to come from a unista, it only has to end up on a unista to cause problems.

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:We cleared the rest of the wave (except for tag J, and waited in site for the non-capsuleer timer to expire. We pulled our drones in, to ensure they couldn't agress the tag J)
While strictly not needed, it's better to dock up for those 15 minutes and take the time to discuss timers and what not, than to sit in the site. While it's unlikely that the timers would cause any issues, it's also no real benefit (just potential problems) sitting in the site. So I'd recommend docking up whenever you end up having to deal with timers.
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Decklin Quark Reiger

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Post 2017.08.06 22:37

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Yep, typo / brain fart - I did mean capsuleer log-off timer.
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2017.08.08 11:55

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

just curious but might this be a situation where someone has auto target back turned on and accidentally shoots their fleet mate?
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Torg Navatin

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Post 2017.08.09 06:36

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Cryptic Sharvas wrote:just curious but might this be a situation where someone has auto target back turned on and accidentally shoots their fleet mate?


Could you do a post-mortem based on combat logs (from everyone?) --- after the excitement I wanted to check my log, but it seemed that clearing the wave had filled up and flushed at least my log quickly.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.08.09 10:11

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

So today you learned this Torg -- Your combat logs are saved in %userprofile%\Documents\EVE\logs\Gamelogs if you're running windows and somewhere else if you're not :)
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Cryptic Sharvas

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Post 2017.08.09 12:05

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Torg Navatin wrote:
Cryptic Sharvas wrote:just curious but might this be a situation where someone has auto target back turned on and accidentally shoots their fleet mate?


Could you do a post-mortem based on combat logs (from everyone?) --- after the excitement I wanted to check my log, but it seemed that clearing the wave had filled up and flushed at least my log quickly.


I cannot as I was not in the fleet where this happened. I was simply speculating.
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Logan Zauber

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Post 2017.08.18 20:50

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

Mystery Solved

Today we flew in a joint fleet with TVP in Solitude. With only 2 Unistas in fleet, we were able to sort out what happened.

1. Logan received agro and damage
2. Nightmare Bro locked Logan and applies Remote Shield Repper
3. Nightmare Bro shoots Logan with Laser, because mistakes happen. A Limited Engagement between Logan and Nightmare Bro is created. Logan is in his Uni Standard (advanced) Pith-B fit, and doesn't even need to overheat. Uni Vindicators got tank.

That's what starts the chain of troubles. Logan and Unibro are in an engagement, sort of as if they are dueling.

4. Agro switches to Unibro, in a borrowed (not tanky) TVP Nightmare. Non-Uni Logi goes yellow safety to apply reps, earning a timer. Logan applies heavy t2 logibots without penalty. Everyone else applying reps (TVP relies on other people than Logi applying reps) gets a timer.
5. Flashy logi applies reps to the rest of the fleet, instigating more timers.
6. Logi boosts, earning themselves a timer, too.
7. Fleet docks up for safety, in confusion.

What I learned
1. Don't shoot your UniBro. Green safety will not prevent you from doing that.
2. Remote Reppers in the utility highs (Nightmares and Hyperions) should only be used with extreme caution in corporations that allow friendly fire.
3. Other fleets than Uni rely on reps from ships other than the Logi Ships to hold up the fleet
3. As FC, I should instruct Nightmares and Hyperions to only use utility reppers in an emergency. In Uni.. we have ample Logi Ship reps.

Running with the fast dogs was fun. I learned a lot. It made me jealous of their Vindicators warping at better than 3 au. It also showed me that indeed, when things go wrong for these guys, thing very quickly deteriorate.

When things were going wrong, suddenly I was appreciating my "slow and tanky" Vindicator. Uni has us carry logistics bots. My idea of bling is that mine are t2 heavies. In a separate incident, my bots helped hold up the OGB today who got deep in to hull. Deep. TVP does not have Vindicators carrying logibots, but I had them. Some may say that it's the booster's fault for LeRoying in to a site without even boosts, but these things happen. Suddenly my tank and my bots made a different kind of sense to me. A different appreciation of our Uni fits.

Finally... Solitude is still an amazingly fun place to visit. If you have not been there.. you are missing something very cool. Nobody died. It'll be fine.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.08.19 02:22

Re: What I Learned Today in Incursions

I highly recommend that everyone reads up on timers and remote assistance and legality on the wiki.

Logan Zauber wrote:3. Nightmare Bro shoots Logan with Laser, because mistakes happen. A Limited Engagement between Logan and Nightmare Bro is created. Logan is in his Uni Standard (advanced) Pith-B fit, and doesn't even need to overheat. Uni Vindicators got tank.

That's what starts the chain of troubles. Logan and Unibro are in an engagement, sort of as if they are dueling.
I would advice not to make this comparison as you're equating this with having a Limited Engagement Timer, which you did not have in this scenario. Even though the effect is similar, the cause is completely different and the timer is much longer.

What actually happened is that you got a Capsuleer Log-Off Timer for being shot by another player, your fellow corp mate (a legal action with friendly fire on, which is the case for EVE University). That timer, combined with the fact that we are at war, will force out of corp logistics to turn their safeties to yellow (partial safety) in order to rep you, thus becoming Suspects.

Now the same would have happened if two people were to enter a duel and someone from the outside tried to assist them, but that doesn't mean you can equate the two scenarios as they are fundamentally quite different and the Limited Engagement Timer only lasts for 5 minutes after the last aggressive act, while the Capsuleer Log-Off Timer lasts 15 minutes.

Logan Zauber wrote:4. Agro switches to Unibro, in a borrowed (not tanky) TVP Nightmare. Non-Uni Logi goes yellow safety to apply reps, earning a timer. Logan applies heavy t2 logibots without penalty.
Yes, you didn't have to go suspect because it was a fellow corp mate, which you are allowed to rep even if you're at war. The war-clause is only for out of corp members. That's why he couldn't rep without going suspect, while you could.

Logan Zauber wrote:What I learned
1. Don't shoot your UniBro. Green safety will not prevent you from doing that.
2. Remote Reppers in the utility highs (Nightmares and Hyperions) should only be used with extreme caution in corporations that allow friendly fire.
3. Other fleets than Uni rely on reps from ships other than the Logi Ships to hold up the fleet
3. As FC, I should instruct Nightmares and Hyperions to only use utility reppers in an emergency. In Uni.. we have ample Logi Ship reps.
All good lessons, although I'll point out that it's any corp with friendly fire allowed, it's not uni specific as a lot of corporations allow friendly fire.

Logan Zauber wrote:Finally... Solitude is still an amazingly fun place to visit. If you have not been there.. you are missing something very cool.
It's our own special island :)
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