World War Bee

Forum rules
While this forum is not exempt from EVE University's communications rules, it is not as heavily moderated as some other forums. Please try to stay on topic and avoid arguments as much as possible.
<<

Ersin Oghuz

Portrait

Assistant Campus Manager
Assistant Campus Manager

Post 2016.04.26 12:46

World War Bee

Well topic is pretty straight forward. What do you think about the latest war between the Imperium (CFC) and MBC?
And what do you think about "Sov is not logical and since we don't care about it we left them so it's not like we are losing war" argument?
Disclaimer: I read some stuff about Goon history and let's say I am still new in this EVE-politics stuff so I really want to learn about more and ask those questions. So please know that I am here just for curiosity not mocking & trolling either faction.
"In Blasters I Trust"


Image


Image
<<

Gir Mabata

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.26 17:35

Re: World War Bee

Ersin Oghuz wrote:Well topic is pretty straight forward. What do you think about the latest war between the Imperium (CFC) and MBC?
And what do you think about "Sov is not logical and since we don't care about it we left them so it's not like we are losing war" argument?
Disclaimer: I read some stuff about Goon history and let's say I am still new in this EVE-politics stuff so I really want to learn about more and ask those questions. So please know that I am here just for curiosity not mocking & trolling either faction.

It's a war and it happened? Not much else to say really. Cloaky camping and sov wanding are obviously effective at removing control of systems, but recent activity suggests that once the system is reverted it's a pain in the butt for the new owner to hold onto it against any sort of resistance.

Sov was a pain to maintain, and I feel LAWN did the smart thing by just up and leaving instead of feeding fleets. As far as I know there is no intention of holding any sov in the foreseeable future.

As a side note, I know a lot of people are consolidating accounts, selling sp off unimportant accounts and unsubbing them; this being indirectly related to the war, new sov, upcoming releases, etc. I wonder how how sub numbers look in the grand scheme of things.
ImageImage
<<

Rodger Kint

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.26 18:03

Re: World War Bee

Fundamentally those bee guys pissed a lot of people off in Eve who weren't bees over the years and we're getting payback for a time by burning their POS's and moon goo factories down.

But... we're all capsulers so death is a brief trip to the clone vat. Isk is easy to make and towers can be rebuilt, aborted titans replaced, etc.

I think the real change we are seeing is the change to how Fozzie Sov is remaking the map of sov. It seems to me that the Universe just got way bigger. It used to be that a large group of pilots in Eve could control a significant fraction of the known universe, rent it out to others, and mine the R32 and R64 moons. Now it's just too big a pain to run around and keep all those systems. The universe as we know it just got a lot bigger. Probably Eve can now accommodate 10x the number of pilots it could before. Sov holding are likely to be smaller with powerful alliances choosing to hold only 5-10 systems instead of a whole region. Staging in Low sec systems is going to be more of a thing, so Sov systems near low sec connections seem likely to me to be the most fought over. Maybe you'll make the effort for a system that has a R64 moon, maybe you won't.
KEEP CALM & DEFFO BLAP YO
Image
The boy who cried Moros * Content Creator * Graduate * Awoxer - The Equalizer
<<

Paledan Safemal

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.26 21:32

Re: World War Bee

Regarding the war, as the others wrote it's pretty simple. A guy named The Mittani, at the head of the largest coalition in the game, had locked down the northern half (then contracted to the northern third) of sovereign nullsec. He then proceeded to antagonize absolutely everybody else, after he realized that his #1 objective (i.e. making his coalition members safe) was boring. After a while, he picked up one fight too many, and various things came together with the end result of half of New Eden piling up on the Goons and their pets.

Now Round 1 is over: all the areas formerly controlled by the Imperium have been conquered, the Imperium has evacuated a ton of assets and redeployed to Saranen in lowsec. Three alliances have left. There were no major battles after the first one, because The Mittani's strategy revolves around denying his opponents fun.

Round 2 is about to begin: the Imperium forces are going to be raiding their former territory, recapturing some systems and trying to make other people miserable for a change.


The jury is still out about the sov.

Right now, the situation is still fairly fluid. I don't know if sovless areas of space can generate the same amount of ISK for large groups as sovnull could, especially with the kind of organization that the Imperium had.

Making sov activity-based means it is extremely time-consuming and there's going to be a lot of people who won't want any of it. We'll see how it goes. No-one 3 months ago had foreseen such a complete collapse of what had been the most powerful entity in the game, so I don't think anyone can really make a truly informed guess as to what nullsec will look like next year.
<<

Theodoric Darkwind

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.26 23:31

Re: World War Bee

Paledan covers it pretty well.

Rather than waste our resources feeding MBC kills in unwinnable fights we elected to let them take the space for now and are having a blast farming PH as they attempt to live in that space, more and more Horde members are going broke in Fade and going back to Querious every day (though looks like Horde space in Querious is being messed with by some of the locals currently). This isn't the first time a massive coalition of convenience has ganged up on Goons and taken our space and likely won't be the last.

Once the MBC goes their separate ways (MBC already declared victory and claimed that Goons are dead haha) then will come the fun of taking back our space since the various random alliances that are being installed in Dek, Fade, PB and Branch won't have PL and NCDot's help in defending their space once the IWI isk stops flowing.
Former ILN BG1 "Black Sheep"



Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
<<

Ersin Oghuz

Portrait

Assistant Campus Manager
Assistant Campus Manager

Post 2016.04.27 08:53

Re: World War Bee

So this "we are not fighting since sov-space is worthless for us anyways" is a propaganda to cover the fact that the Imperium is losing the war big time, since you are saying that you will strike back to take those lost space back? Due to the sov mechanics it seems hard to protect those space w/o dedicated time and capsuleers, but to be honest the argument of Imperium seemed pretty much weird to me. Nevertheless, although it seems very hard task to do, i think Imperium (or at least core of it) will remain intact and probably will get some portion of sov-space back, at least the portion that they can protect actively, because unlike the RL wars, capsuleers don't die :) .
Also I am confused about the current strategy of Mittani. I am newbro so sure thing I have many things to learn, especially in game mechanics, but having the control of the #01 powerful entity and retreating and evading the conflict when the enemy is breaking your gates seems very weird to me. Sure, if I have a corporation with very few members to defend sure I will definetly want to evade conflict and try to protect the very few assests we have in our hands, but being the most powerfull entity in New Eden and evading war confuses me. Or maybe when you have everything to lose you don't want to risk it, and when you have very few or none to loose you can risk it like in RL.
Apart from the war, I guess we can say that the sov-space will be much more colorful from now on with the new mechanics. Corporations probably hold the sov-space where they can protect and leave the rest to the other new corps and new alliances & coalitions will form on those basis.
"In Blasters I Trust"


Image


Image
<<

Paledan Safemal

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 09:48

Re: World War Bee

Some bullet points:

Who's winning
It's too early to say the Imperium is losing big time. The Imperium has taken a beating, and it has lost more, and more quickly, than anybody on either side thought. However, that's only Round One.

A war ends when one side becomes unable to go on fighting.
In the Fountain War, 3 years ago, TEST lost the war. The alliance didn't die because its members, as you pointed out, can't be killed, but for all practical purposes TEST was wiped out as an entity. What remained were a smallish bunch of core members hating Goons and vowing that Some Day (tm) they'd get payback. But New Eden is full of those kinds of people, with grudges that most of them will never be able to settle.
In the current war, Goons & Co have lost half their members and most of their ISK-making ability, but they remain a very large, very cohesive entity with significant assets. If the Imperium decides to go retake Deklein, there's nothing the current owners - Darkness - can do to stop it, short of hoping everybody dogpiles on the Goons again.

This is not over.

Why didn't they fight?

Just because the Imperium was the most powerful entity in the game doesn't mean it was more powerful than everyody else combined, which is pretty much what it ended up facing.
The Imperium represented about half of sovereign nullsec, which made them secure enough because the other half consisted of groups that hated each other, and ditto with lowsec. Also, the non-Imperium part of New Eden included a lot of small groups, which were individually much better than equivalent members of Imperium pilots (shameless plug as an illustration: this is us hazing some renters / pets before pulling out when Daddy-NC. brought in too much heavy stuff in support of their charges). However, the odds of such random groups of pirates from nullsec, lowsec or w-space coalescing against the Imperium were virtually nil.
Various factors made it possible for the anti-Imperium side to reach critical mass, at which point the Imperium was outnumbered. The Imperium had pretty much become a one-trick poney, and once it was unable to outnumber and outspend its opposition, it just didn't know what to do.

Let there be no mistakes: had the Imperium fought, they would likely have lost all their space anyway. It would just have taken longer, and been costlier for both sides (a little coslier for the Imperium, because they ended up losing a lot of stuff anyway, and much costlier for the MBC). Lots of people would have had fun, mostly on the MBC side, and there would have been some more headlines-making battles, but barring some really terrible mistakes by the MBC, Imperium sov was going down anyway.

The Mittani decided not to give the opposing side any fights.
- As a Fabian strategy, it was unsuccessful because the coalition wasn't weakened by it.
- It may have prevented the forging of a common identity within the MBC, which was the stated goal. I have my doubts because as I wrote many of these groups hate each other and they're only united because they hate the Goons more, but... who knows?
- It did make the war less fun for both sides. Op success I guess.
- Imperium members who had stopped playing and resubbed for the war promptly unsubbed again, and other Imperium members left, or simply ignored official strategy, punching tickets in a coalition fleet once or twice a week and doing their own thing the rest of the time.
- The litmus test is how many people you get to fleet up when you call for a stratop. Mittani's strategy meant both sides bled numbers, whether the Imperium would have been better off fighting is an open question.
- The Mittani is a vindictive bastard, he explicitely said that if his side couldn't have fun winning (because that's how he defines having fun), then neither should anyone else. From that perspective, his strategy has been a smashing success: capturing the Goons' capital systems of VFK and YA0 was anticlimactic, and CCP's hoped for communication hype based on a new huge war with big battles fell flat. Given how the Mittani hates CCP for not building the sandbox the way he wants it, that's totally a win in his book.


What will sovnull look like?

The Mittani & minions keep harping that sovnull is dead, Aegis sov is fail, sov is not worth having, and all that. It's obviously propaganda, that doesn't mean it can't be true.

New blocks will likely coalesce. There will likely be non invasion pacts between at least some of the new neighbors, though an Imperium-like coalition is not in the cards at the moment.

It's worth remembering that people have been complaining about the state of sov since pretty much the start of the game. No reason it should change.

No-one. NO-ONE, can know for certain what sovnull will be like a year from now. To parrot a famous Goon phrase: just because Aegis sov has ruined their game, doesn't mean it has ruined the game 8)
<<

Enta en Bauldry

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 09:55

Re: World War Bee

Where might I find maps for alliance/coalition ownership? It's quite hard to tell who's taken what from reddit/forum posts.
Nobody
<<

Intana Kreis

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 10:59

Re: World War Bee

Ersin Oghuz wrote:So this "we are not fighting since sov-space is worthless for us anyways" is a propaganda to cover the fact that the Imperium is losing the war big time, since you are saying that you will strike back to take those lost space back?


Realistically the reason sov has some value to them is that a reasonable percentage of their members made isk on the back of having sov - and that is how they got the numbers that enabled them to adopt their particular style of engagement.

You don't need multiple regions for that of course - but then if your sov space is constantly being roamed through, it disrupts some of the activity going on there - so then you have buffer zones and so on and so forth.
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

Image
<<

Deban Huren

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 13:40

Re: World War Bee

Enta en Bauldry wrote:Where might I find maps for alliance/coalition ownership? It's quite hard to tell who's taken what from reddit/forum posts.


These are the best Sov maps:
http://evenews24.com/verite-renditions-sov-map/

You can also find good information on changes in Sov and membership numbers on Dotlan:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliances
<<

Caitlyn Semah

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 21:27

Re: World War Bee

How I take it is they're both fighting for different reasons and have different win conditions. So they may both end up thinking they won. The Imperium isn't really about the good fights. They're empire building. So in the short term this is a loss for them. The MBC is mostly about smashing the goon leadership. Most of their fights are to try to hit things they think will get them there. Kill morale to cause a coup or some kind of revolt. Taking SOV could be one route to that. There is a lot of belief that the only reason people really followed the leadership is the benefit they got from being part of a large empire. You took the bad with the good, it was the price you paid. If there is no empire, then you lose all the support structure that filled out the numbers and kept the ADM high in all the SOV. MBCs win condition would be kicking out the goon leadership and not have them in charge of a major power bloc again.

We're at the point now though where we find out if people will stick with the goon leadership long enough to either accept themselves as a roaming alliance/coalition, or until the goons can get SOV again and the line member goon can start doing their thing again. A big ace in the hole is the capswarm is still logged off. They can unsub them and never choose to engage. As long as they do, goons will be a threat. They can wait out the MBC and log capswarm in at some later time to wreck some things and project power quickly. MBC will have to form some very long term anti-goon pact to prevent that, and that's not going to happen.

So honestly, if the MBCs goal is the elimination of goon leaderships power as it stands and goons goal is to empire build, who wins will ultimately be in the hands of the person who decides when to log on capswarm. They'll have a huge surprise advantage. That sword of damacles hang out there forever waiting to fall. If it doesn't come when called, or is called too early and gets crushed by the prepared, goon leadership is done. If they can surprise everyone with power projection after MBC has broken up, goons will come back as a smaller alliance, but still have something to start to empire build again. MBC loses in the long term there.

So my take is that while the goons will shed those hanging on their coat tails, the people who do stay will be able to grab sov again. The MBC has to have a long term strategy to win that prevents goons from reforming, or the will come back with a lot of supers.

Who knows, that's my musing on it. I'm not sure how I want things to end up.
<<

Theodoric Darkwind

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.27 23:57

Re: World War Bee

The main driving force behind the MBC is the vast quantities of isk that iwantisk is throwing at the MBC members, and it is mainly the work of one person. Once that isk flow stops much of the incentive goes away. The current Imperium strategy is to play space terrorist and make it annoying as hell to live in the space the MBC just took. Part of the decision not to throw away large fleets in unwinnable fights was to stretch out what resources the Imperium has and to help keep SRP flowing so that line members aren't bleeding isk. This also puts us in a stronger position when the time comes to retake space. Had GSF gone broke defending Dek there might have been more risk of the alliance collapsing, there really isn't any slope, we did gain some numbers from alliances that left the Imperium (FCON does seem to be recovering nicely in the south) and most of the losses were just people pulling alts out to shift over to highsec isk generation.
Former ILN BG1 "Black Sheep"



Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
Image Image Image
<<

Paledan Safemal

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.28 07:22

Re: World War Bee

Theodoric Darkwind wrote:The main driving force behind the MBC is the vast quantities of isk that iwantisk is throwing at the MBC members, and it is mainly the work of one person.


...or at least, so The Mittani's propaganda says.

The reality is people have been hitting the Goons because they want to, and during the winter it started to look like there was a chink in the armor. The ISK has made it possible to deploy there full-time without worrying about SRP, and it has definitely sped things up.

But mercenary contracts being "the main driving force"? Nah. Not only would most of the MBC be able to make better ISK elsewhere, some of us don't play the game for the ISK. The MBC has been hitting the Imperium because it was fun and because it was possible, not because it was profitable.

Theodoric Darkwind wrote:Part of the decision not to throw away large fleets in unwinnable fights was to stretch out what resources the Imperium has and to help keep SRP flowing so that line members aren't bleeding isk. This also puts us in a stronger position when the time comes to retake space. Had GSF gone broke defending Dek there might have been more risk of the alliance collapsing, there really isn't any slope, we did gain some numbers from alliances that left the Imperium (FCON does seem to be recovering nicely in the south) and most of the losses were just people pulling alts out to shift over to highsec isk generation.


Where we agree: the Goons have remained more or less stable, but the Imperium has shed a lot of members. How many will flock back to the Imperium banner if Mittani's forces start taking back space we'll have to see.

Where we disagree: that you're in a stronger position. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.

Consider the following:
- a lot of the MBC losses don't matter, because as you wrote they're being reimbursed by I Want ISK. Also, MBC members have started farming in Imperium space and realizing how fantastic it was. Meanwhile, members of the Imperium can't make as much ISK as they were used to. There's still highsec incursions and farming wormholes, but you don't support the same number of characters with these.
- The Imperium has lost a ton of stuff. POS towers, ships - including capitals and some supers - being hurriedly evacuated. Granted, a lot of these assets belonged to players who weren't the best and brightest PVPers in the coalition, whereas if the Imperium had fought the "fighters" would have been the ones losing assets. Still, the losses we know about - because they were destroyed - are staggering, and that's not counting the losses we don't have figures for: members firesaling their assets at rock-bottom prices. Things like selling your Machariel for 400 thousand ISK (I'm not making this up), and someone I know is selling caps in Deklein for 800m each, making 150% profits on each sale.
- The Imperium has lost morale and credibility. For months, The Mittani had encouraged grinding ADM ops. Even after the war had started, the message from above was to go on grinding ADMs to make Deklein impregnable. Then all of a sudden it was all run for the hills, everybody in Saranen. The horn of Goondor is now broken. Maybe it can be mended, but that will take time.


I think we agree that doing Ragnarok would have left the Imperium worse off than it currently is. However, there were alternatives to Ragnarok and not fighting unless you're in a cloaky bomber or interceptor. If nothing else, a fighting withdrawal would have allowed the Imperium to hold on to more territory for longer, evacuate more assets, maybe worn out some of the weaker members of the MBC by providing a staging place for Reavers-like raids.

Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to second-guess the Imperium's strategy here. I'm laying out some consequences, and possible alternatives, so Unistas and other members might learn about nullsec wars. There were more alternatives than Imperium propaganda suggests.
<<

glepp

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.28 19:07

Re: World War Bee

Paledan Safemal wrote:Consider the following:
- The Imperium has lost a ton of stuff.


(10:40:34 PM) lazarus_telraven: So how many Titans in CSAA have we lost so far?
(10:40:51 PM) tiberizzle:lazarus_telraven: 58


Wait, how many Titans were lost in B-R again?

SPOILER WARNING!
for the newbies: the now MBC side lost 59

This was a couple of weeks ago. And it's just the Titans that were in build, not counting those lost during moves etc. Basically, when CO2 flipped sides, they provided the MBC side with locations and build progression times on shittons of Imperium supers currently in build. Those have been destroyed. Sucks to have been an industry bear in Imperium, those are individual assets as far as I know.

Bring into this the fact that the imperium superfleet is logged off in POSes that are now destroyed and bubbled by the MBC and replaced with deathstar POSes (soon to be citadels with huge f***ing guns) and that supers are no longer EWAR immune. That means that any imperium supers logging in will get pointed, agressed, and will lack all the new cap modules leaving them at a huge disadvantage in a fight. Also, they will be unable to move until they ditch the excess drones from their fighter bays.

So how did that whole Fabian strategy work out for the Goons?

Have fun with the wulfpax swordfleets.
Image
<<

Sol Arisa Ke'aide

Portrait

Member
Member

Post 2016.04.28 19:31

Re: World War Bee

Guys,

thanks for your postings and the insight. I really appreciate it, especially because you probably didn't just type all of it within 5 minutes.

Cheers,

Sol
Timezone: GMT+2, Location: Switzerland
Next

Return to EVE Politics and Trolling

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Powered by Dediserve