[AAR] WHC eviction from the FC team point of view

[Kyle Hargrove]

Thanks Gideon & FC Team for the AAR!

Between this, White's document, and Archie's AAR, I have read a lot of valuable reflections.

I want to highlight something that I think hasn't been said much so far:

Some of my observations after coming back to the game recently following a 4 year hiatus.

*Few days ago we scanned a chain with close to 50 systems, or 2%?? of the entire wormhole space; there was no PvP to be had.
*Large number of C3's we connect to are empty with no structures at all.
*C5 space is basically all crab holes.

Looking at the state of WH space it is only natural that PvP players have left and were replaced by PvE players.

PvP players will not go back to the space where there is no PvP. I'm not sure that some administrative changes like directors having toons in WHC is going to change the eventual outcome i.e. another 1T in assets eventually being blown up by a different group or maybe even the same one.

We can't pretend that this issue does not exist and we can somehow bring back the old WHC while everything around it has changed.

As another recent "returner" (from even further in the past!), I have to agree: WSpace feels just kinda empty-ish. I've been doing quite a bit of WSpace scanning since I returned, both high-class and low-class, and I have hardly seen any PvP engagements happening or brewing. Heck, I have hardly ever even been hunted!

This being said, I still think that living in WSpace is an absolute blast: it's a unique experience in all of gaming, and IMO the best space in EVE. There's an incredible "power projection" it affords (i.e., being able to travel very effectively around the map), it gives access to the most varied content, and it teaches a lot of useful skills (in EVE and IRL).

As Yuri said: WSpace changed, so WHC should also change. Good news there's a blank slate now — lots of room for fresh ideas :]

[Boundbylife]

I started the game just days before this all went down, but after reading through it I don't see anything inherently wrong in any of these findings. I'm sure it's an uncomfortable read for some, but better to deal with an uncomfortable truth than to suffer the consequences of not facing it at all.

[Arin Mara]

Hello hello! I'm Arin Mara, the Wiki Manager.

Here's how I've framed my desires in the Management communication channel:

The destruction of the Wormhole Community Structures is among the most exhilarating events in EVE University history.

It will force upon us the question: what is EVE University all about? Structures? People? ISK? Education?
Is truth for everyone or for a few? What do people think of their fellow capsuleers?

Drama is for the theater and that's where it should stay.
What I desire is a promethean clash for the flaming core of EVE University. I'm confident that, at the core, EVE University is about people and education. If true, than even the loss of all structures and ISK is secondary
I don't blame those that left. Promethean birds and singeing heat are painful.
As for those who are waiting for an AAR: do you know in advance what the AAR must state for you to change or solidify your mind about staying at EVE University?

Until my convictions about EVE University are shattered, my priorities will stay the same: do what's meaningful; make the Wiki more beautiful and truthful; make Anidien's and Devalt's life easier.

Additionally, I state:

• The Mission Statement of EVE University is to educate.
• Upwell Constortium Structures must follow the same aphorism as Ships: anchor only what you can afford to lose.
• The Wormhole Community is one of four Communities within EVE University.
• The Wormhole Community are people and is a Community without brick and mortar.
• A Community having an Upwell Constortium Structure is a nice to have tool for executing the Mission Statement of EVE University and cannot be a necessity without which a Community cannot exist.

Since EVE University resources are finite:

• What portion of EVE University resources should be invested into producing PvP Doctrine Ships, building and maintaining Structures, (PvP) Ship Replacement Program or funding of Fleet Command Team? Do these execute the Mission Statement of EVE University?
• What portion of EVE University resources should be invested into the Teaching, Mentor or Wiki Departments? Do these execute the Mission Statement of EVE University?
• How many capsuleers can be taught how to do strategic warfare as oppose to, for example, exploration?
• To what degree should expensive or (that's an inclusive OR) minority gameplay choices be funded by EVE University?
• What is the relationship between teaching strategic warfare and EVE University Neutrality Policy?

Readers, join me in envisioning a future where EVE University focuses on executing its Mission Statement and not on waging expensive battles, not on owning Upwell Consortium Structures, not on appointing a Director who shall seek to do combat.
EVE University can do good by its founders without them.

[Sars Covin]

I read this when published a few days ago, but figured it was important to come back to it later, so bear with me:

I believe thoroughly that it is an individual's responsibility to stand up and raise your hand politely and constructively (... or at least 75% of one of those two?) when you see organizational issues. And it would be my hope that future Uni leadership learns to listen to the individuals with the experience and passion that make Uni successful, before they have to leave the organization out of frustration like I did with my main.

(The fact that I continue to kick around helping administratively should indicate the level that I support our overall mission.)

To that end: The following points that Gideon makes were, at least in part, verbatim to my main's (Sars Covin) experience in WHC in the weeks leading up to the eviction. He may have also heard the same sentiments from others -- there is nothing special about my experience compared to other's. But I was both a Community Coordinator and Skirmish FC for a very short time before I exfilled the entirety of my WHC assets to Jita and left Corp in concern for the following:

…It also created a culture where it had been difficult for successive FCs, both within WHC and coming from without to form fleets, especially in doctrine….

…that WHC was certainly not in a position to defend itself when threatened because of the factors mentioned earlier. That issue had become even more apparent several months ago when a corp called Hole Control cloaky camped WHC for a few days, after which at least one staff member left for other corporations because, according to them, they realised how wide open WHC was in that sense….

…Our observation however was that the Community Coordinators did not feel they were given much authority to do things in WHC, including dealing with the cultural issues in the community, or pretty much make any decisions independently from the management…

Whatever comes next for WHC will only be successful if the organization sets direction and vision, but then listens (closely, and with empathy) and supports (collaboratively, and with good intention) to the mid-tier leaders that have to execute the vision.

I will continue to support Uni in a support function, but I urge Leadership that changes are necessary to keep the day-to-day talent you require to run the organization from "graduating" elsewhere rather than finding fulfillment in a collaborative Staff position.

====================================================================================================

Readers, join me in envisioning a future where EVE University focuses on executing its Mission Statement and not on waging expensive battles, not on owning Upwell Consortium Structures, not on appointing a Director who shall seek to do combat.
EVE University can do good by its founders without them.

I will also add (from an entirely personal tact) that this sentiment from Arin is entirely hogwash. Eve is a PvP game. If you want a mission that can be fulfilled without structures, defense, fleets and combat, your mission is antithetical to Eve. If Eve Uni is to retreat to NPC stations without those aspects, it would simultaneously deny it's mission to teach members the reality of the game, and write it's own ticket to irrelevance (... and thus, failure).

... but, we all know how well forum-based debates go, so have a nice night.

[Salartarium]

Hey Gideon and other interested parties.

The https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/History_ ... University page on the Wiki has been lacking for some time. It would be cool to have something about this incident recorded on the page for 2023.

Sometimes I feel lost when drama happens in Uni since I’m not privy to higher management stuff. I don’t really know how corps function at the game organizational level and I don’t know how all the gears fit together. Maybe some day I’ll try out the WH campus as well.

There’s two things I think we should look to from Uni’s past:

The position of Vice President. Very different from Director of Operations, the VP could just take control of all the in-game non educational stuff in case of a tire fire and lead.

The Ivy League Navy. It separated a lot of the educational staff and paper pushers from PvP operations. Rather than having just an FC team, it ordered the best PvP’ers in Uni by a rank/rating. Rather than knowing who can FC a fleet it was also useful for knowing who you can choose for Delta, or for quickly organizing a serious Uni wide fleet.


As a paper pusher myself I wish I had the intricate ingame knowledge needed to contribute towards a solution, but it seems the cascade of failures that led to the eviction are way out of my league.

[Petrovski Valenko]

I enjoyed every word.

[Quazimodem Cathulu]

Well written, on point and to the point. Thanks for the time and effort on this report. I do hope the messages, and thoughts are not lost to those who need to hear them.

[Biwako Acami]

Just had to clear this misguided notion on WHC defense.

E-UNI cannot stave off a serious eviction even with a well oiled corporation considering the purpose of the Campus/Community. We recognized in the past that we were mostly left untouched from the good will of the major W-Space corps. We always did our best to bring out the good fights and throw our best ships (which is still paltry in comparison to what real W-Space corps throw on the field.) It was also the reason why shying away from PvP was frowned on.

The first flip of ALI (Fort's old name) was done with a vision of shifting mindsets into treating the WHC space as volatile. IIRC, there was a wave of evictions being done in that year across W-Space so we only figured it was matter of time before it came to WHC.

As many rightly said, changes need to be focused on educating about this volatility and systems need to be in place to help unistas exfil their disposable inventory regularly. This shouldn't deter things like industry, PI, etc. We still want to encourage activity.

[Gideon Mastracci jr]

Just had to clear this misguided notion on WHC defense.

E-UNI cannot stave off a serious eviction even with a well oiled corporation considering the purpose of the Campus/Community. We recognized in the past that we were mostly left untouched from the good will of the major W-Space corps. We always did our best to bring out the good fights and throw our best ships (which is still paltry in comparison to what real W-Space corps throw on the field.) It was also the reason why shying away from PvP was frowned on.

The first flip of ALI (Fort's old name) was done with a vision of shifting mindsets into treating the WHC space as volatile. IIRC, there was a wave of evictions being done in that year across W-Space so we only figured it was matter of time before it came to WHC.

As many rightly said, changes need to be focused on educating about this volatility and systems need to be in place to help unistas exfil their disposable inventory regularly. This shouldn't deter things like industry, PI, etc. We still want to encourage activity.

While I agree with most points there, I disagree with the blanket statement of an organised WHC defence being somehow a bad idea. As this eviction showed, we can't do everything. But as the fight with HK showed, we also can do something. There is a wide range of possible evictors that we could defend against given the right organisation, even if they do not include the largest groups in the game. Lately, WHC could not even function properly when a few dudes with cloaky Lokis decided to camp it for a few days. That's probably not the balance we want to have going forward.

In terms of wormholes being volatile space - absolutely agreed. We drastically failed to instil this into newer and even the older members. There were very large amounts of assets being held by quite experienced WHCers btw who simply moved their assets between cycled structures. I don't know how to deal with that one.

[Cullaine]

Hello hello! I'm Arin Mara, the Wiki Manager.

Since EVE University resources are finite:

• What portion of EVE University resources should be invested into producing PvP Doctrine Ships, building and maintaining Structures, (PvP) Ship Replacement Program or funding of Fleet Command Team? Do these execute the Mission Statement of EVE University?

Thank you for that elucidating post, Arin. I agree that Eve University is a teaching organization first and foremost.

The way I like to look at EUNI is like it's a US College. And the FC Team/Hardcore PvP bros are like a collegiate football team. Army or Navy (EUNI) will never beat Alabama or LSU (TEST, BOB, WAFFLES, etc.) in a flat-out contest, but it's nice to rally around and a fun way to pass the time. I think it's worth investing some resources in those styles of players because PvP is a significant portion of the content in the game - inside and outside of the corporation. It's also a very easy way to generate content and keep that calendar full (a reason why I love EUNI is that there's almost always something to do).

FCing/PVPing is a community. Miners are a community (god bless them). WHC/NSC/HSC is a community. Anything that helps bring people together to form bonds, I think is a good thing.

Just my two cents. Thank you for your honest, well-thought-out points.

Kind Regards,
Cullaine

[Biwako Acami]

While I agree with most points there, I disagree with the blanket statement of an organised WHC defence being somehow a bad idea. As this eviction showed, we can't do everything. But as the fight with HK showed, we also can do something. There is a wide range of possible evictors that we could defend against given the right organisation, even if they do not include the largest groups in the game. Lately, WHC could not even function properly when a few dudes with cloaky Lokis decided to camp it for a few days. That's probably not the balance we want to have going forward.

In terms of wormholes being volatile space - absolutely agreed. We drastically failed to instil this into newer and even the older members. There were very large amounts of assets being held by quite experienced WHCers btw who simply moved their assets between cycled structures. I don't know how to deal with that one.

I guess I was speaking specifically about one thing I didn't articulate my thoughts clearly on this. Do defend your home with everything you got because that is still what's on the line. Your resilience is ammo for other efforts. However, a motivated campaign hardly ends with 1 large fight.

As E-UNI you will always have line members that do not conform. Either enable change or learn to live with it. If you want stricter enforcement you'll need to move to a corp where that matters.