[AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

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Lynx Zauberer
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[AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Lynx Zauberer »

I know this is wordy, and poorly formatted but this is my first AAR, so please be understanding. <3

Unistas were mining a jackpot pull at varris in T22, when a spike of two neutrals was reported. Kym Novacat was reported to be in a Hyperion, and the ship Jeska Ironsoldier was flying was unknown. A small form up was called to gate camp the PC9 to Jh gate, a bottleneck for the pocket. The decision was made to use a tackle gnosis to engage the Hyperion off grid from the camp specifically at top station, this way if the unidentified neutral was a Cyno we would minimize losses. The Hyperion was tackled and a Moros dreadnaught uncloaked. Secondary tackle was prioritized and the FC called for bubbles to secure the neutrals positions. At this point a ping was issued to the Uni discord. Tackle was maintained on the Moros and Hyperion using a rotation of bubblers dropping bubbles and extracting. BLOPS bombers doctrine was officially called as more unistas arrived. Bombers engaged and destroyed the pair, and as the Hyperion was providing targeting advantages to the dread it was focused. the bombers then assumed an aggressive close orbit around the dread, which was adjusted quickly to a 20km orbit to account for webs. The bombers began applying pressure to the dread while bubblers maintained tackle, with intermittent calls for bombers securing secondary points to account for gaps in coverage. At this time comms became more agitated, as UF Miphilog and two others in tackle ships arrived to snipe bombers. A small force of unistas was dispatched as antitackle to guard the bombers.
Select Uni members began offering the aid of out-of-corp pilots, requesting assistance setting up cynos and requesting information on the battle. While said members were establishing means to get waffles and Shadow Cartel in the fight, a second cap, a rorqual piloted by Dallas Ormand for UF, was cynoed onto field. The rorq preceded to red box the Moros. After scattered comms, and without explicit approval and understanding from the FC subsequent cynos were lit one for waffles, and one for shadow cartel. Shadow cartel provided a legion fleet, and waffles provided a small handful of dreads and carriers. The Moros was quickly destroyed, and the rorqual was then aggressed by Uni forces, as well as shadow cartel and waffles. Additional forces appeared, and the battle escalated with forces from We Will End Your Whole… being cynoed in. Waffles docked up, and Shadow cartel manifested a small response of dreads in addition to the legions. At this point FC called for unistas to stand down, and bombers to warp to a specific point off grid. FC called doctrine stand down and instead for individuals to transition to looting. FC suggested blockade runners to loot, and made it clear that the field was not safe, and those who did, were to be looting in a hostile environment. The fight between cap groups persisted with notably heavy losses from we will end your whole, and a few uni ships were lost in the wind down as individuals looted, or tried to get on kills.

The Short version:

Doctrine: BLOPS Bombers with Specific bubblers, hero tackle, and anti-tackle requested
FC: Lynx Zauberer
2IC: Roscoe Ormand (who did a great job, and had great initiative)
Formup: QRF which evolved into Fleet Action
https://br.evetools.org/br/6080c68e2924cb001b44c8e7
Lootsheet ~ 96m per fleet member (a slight loss on average, but close to even)

Takeaways: + Pros, and – Cons

+ Felt there was a good response from members joining from discord ping, and the influx was well handled by locals for a QRF into Fleet action, with supplying bombers initially.

+ Unistas did well following commands for the fleet, and were generally responsive to quick changes in circumstances.

+ Unistas were responsible and group minded in the aftermath and cleanup, with appropriate use of a loot can, and at least patience IV.

+ Valuable feedback was provided to the FC AFTER the fight instead of interrupting during the combat to make corrections.

+ Dreads and Carriers go boom! It was fun, and I had a great time FCing something like that, I hope to do it again soon and apply some things ive learned about combat, people, and interacting with outsiders

- Combat comms were not widely respected, and communication was lax, which exacerbated the confusing situation.

- The FC was not given adequate timely information by uni members who were organizing private fleets for intervention, which lead to inconvenient issues of a diplomatic nature.

- FC did not understand the politics of capital combat, which compounded the issues with assisting parties shooting uni members, as well as uni member confidence in FC commands in that respect.

- FC was nervous at times, and some of my more hesitant orders were not well conveyed, as I was very much out of my depth, having a Senior FC or advisor in a command channel would have been helpful.

- A more Optimal doctrine couldn’t be called due to skill and supply barriers (something we will work on at NSC getting a solid set of doctrines we can reliably expect people to have ready).

- Bombers and interdictors also go boom… we lost a lot more than we needed to, which was tough.


An important note that was made in retrospect was on the suggestion of third parties to the FC. Uni members who organized the form up of outside parties such as shadow cartel and waffles did not sufficiently explain the conditions for the assistance or intervention. Cyno fields were created by uni members without the FCs request, and the terms of the temporary alliance were NOT clearly stated. There were significant concerns with the assisting of shadow cartel specifically. These concerns could have been diminished if more information was provided to the FC on the terms of the shadow cartel assistance, and the standing attributed to uni members by shadow cartel. Waffles members were in fleet, so less concern arose. This inherently would be a situation that is manageable, as we could treat all neutrals as such, but this compounded with busy comms and my not understanding standard practice for cap fleets resulted in a less than ideal situation. It was stated by the FC that the continued loot scooping initiative was to be done under the assumption that the field was dangerous, but still the lack of clarity lead to challenges and situations that could have been avoided if more information was provided to the FC, and comms were less busy. (additionally An attempt at diplomacy was made by Shadow Cartel, to SRP select uni losses if uni members stood down from looting dreadnaughts. FC ordered Unistas prioritize looting subcap wreks and uni wrecks at this point, but in truth the unistas didnt own the field at any point so the choice was more made out of resignation to my political confusion than anything else... I console myself by thinking we prob got most the stuff we were gonna get by then anyways, as they were starting to get solid field control at that point)

All else aside....

A huge thanks for all of you who answerd the call to arms, and a special thanks for those of you who stepped up and went above and beyond in that combat. Whether it was bubblers selfless sacrifices, bombers pilling on the damage, or uni bros pumping out ships for peeps, you were all great! im sorry it was chaotic at times, and some Uni SRP should ease the pain alittle (file for SRP if you havent yet). I hope you all thought It was a fun time, and I'll see you all again soon!

Best,
Lynx Zauberer
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Roscoe Ormand
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Roscoe Ormand »

You did a great job Lynx of running that quick response and organising it together. Tackle management was stellar and I have to give props to the guys that were running that in a nice cycle!

Folks getting involved and speed coming down from other campuses to help out was great! And it was fantastic to have so many folks on deck pitching in to help!

What would possibly be useful out the back of this is getting a process down for escalations? Something/Some Resource we can tap when we need to start getting in stuff bigger than battle cruisers on an Ad hoc basis. And there is only 1 Anti-cap doctrine I am aware of and NSC isn't currently set up for running it. So having a clear route for Escalations might be handy here!
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Magic Anninen
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Magic Anninen »

Hi Lynx and Roscoe,

you both did a great job of FCing this QRF-cap-escalation. I recall asking who is able to fly a bomber as soon as the Moros showed up...i would have never thought it will end up like this!
For me it was the second time bubbling caps, after having done this the first time years ago. Personally i'm happy to have lost only 2 bubblers, where the second one i could have been preventing. I was utilizing my cloak on the dictors to a great success, combined with always burning out of my own bubble towards a warp-out point.

After all, i think we (unistas) did a great job there. The key decision (from Lynx) was to go for tackling the Moros, not knowing if we can take it or would get help in time. All this without any solid experience fighting caps (for the most of us).

How to improve?
1. Get our stocked doctrines (contract & campus) up to speed
2. Get some training / knowledge-transfer on fighting caps from 3rd parties

I had lots of fun, excitement and satisfaction in this fight!

cheers
Magic
Last edited by Magic Anninen on 2021.04.22 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Roscoe Ormand
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Roscoe Ormand »

Definitely agree on getting the Stocked doctrines up to speed and most definitely agree on getting some cap fighting knowledge! That would be worthwhile!

You did a great job on the bubbling Magic, can't fault that at all, nor to the other bubblers.

Seeing the dread war on PC9 top station when it all mega popped off was great though! :D
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Lynx Zauberer
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Lynx Zauberer »

Thanks you two! and yeah, I have some chats planned with people to learn more about the batphone politics :P as for the contracts, its a work in progress, but situations like these are certainly exemplars for situations they would come in handy...

Please, I greatly appriceate comments and feedback, so anything you can contribute feel free to comment! this is how we learn!
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Tomcat Evergreen
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Tomcat Evergreen »

You did one thing very well: You kept on talking, you always made sure we had commands therefore giving us confidence that we had leadership. And while there was some confusion and unruly comms at times, you still had your fleet more or less under control. Which culminated in us obeying your final stand down order instead of just whelping in chaos as we usually do.
Keep on going, only experience can make you understand better.
Last edited by Tomcat Evergreen on 2021.04.23 17:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by ElectricHaze »

Somehow this even got a write-up in the Talking In Stations newsletter:
April 22nd 2021

Syndicate

In PC9-AY the forces of United Fleet clashed with Ivy League. This action spilled over to several other groups. United Fleet formed with 22 ships including a 3.7 billion isk Moros, which was the main attraction. They also brought a mixed fleet for support. Ivy League formed with 41 ships including Nemesis Stealth Bombers, with the goal of bombing the Moros. While this was playing out, Shadow Cartel and I Will End Your Whole found out.

They showed up to kill the Moros, and started fighting each other. Shadow Cartel brought 42 ships including Revelation Dreadnaughts and a Legion Fleet, along with a few Moros. I Will End Your Whole brought 16 ships, including its own 5.1 billion isk Moros.

In the end Ivy League successfully destroyed its target. They lost in all 57 ships valued at 3.4 billion isk. United Fleet lost 22 ships valued at 13.2 billion isk. Shadow Cartel lost 5 ships valued at 11.2 billion from the loss of 2 Dreadnaughts and 3 Legions. I Will End Your Whole lost 9 ships valued at 41 billion isk due to the loss of 3 Dreadnaughts and 3 Naglfar.

Adreland Deninard
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Gergoran Moussou
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Lynx Zauberer wrote: 2021.04.22 02:41 Takeaways: + Pros, and – Cons

+ Felt there was a good response from members joining from discord ping, and the influx was well handled by locals for a QRF into Fleet action, with supplying bombers initially.

+ Unistas did well following commands for the fleet, and were generally responsive to quick changes in circumstances.

+ Unistas were responsible and group minded in the aftermath and cleanup, with appropriate use of a loot can, and at least patience IV.

+ Valuable feedback was provided to the FC AFTER the fight instead of interrupting during the combat to make corrections.

+ Dreads and Carriers go boom! It was fun, and I had a great time FCing something like that, I hope to do it again soon and apply some things ive learned about combat, people, and interacting with outsiders

- Combat comms were not widely respected, and communication was lax, which exacerbated the confusing situation.

- The FC was not given adequate timely information by uni members who were organizing private fleets for intervention, which lead to inconvenient issues of a diplomatic nature.

- FC did not understand the politics of capital combat, which compounded the issues with assisting parties shooting uni members, as well as uni member confidence in FC commands in that respect.

- FC was nervous at times, and some of my more hesitant orders were not well conveyed, as I was very much out of my depth, having a Senior FC or advisor in a command channel would have been helpful.

- A more Optimal doctrine couldn’t be called due to skill and supply barriers (something we will work on at NSC getting a solid set of doctrines we can reliably expect people to have ready).

- Bombers and interdictors also go boom… we lost a lot more than we needed to, which was tough.
The biggest thing that sticks out here is the coordinating outside assistance. It sounded like that was all done without your knowledge. The people doing that should have jumped into the command channel to talk to you and keep you informed about that.

Combat comms have always been a Uni issue. It was like that when I was leading Uni fleets, it was like that when I talked too much in situations when I should have been quiet. One thing which was standard practice in Uni fleets when I was around (I don't know if this has changed since then) was that people used their shout keys by default. In general, you'll want people to use whisper keys by default, so that only people in the same subchannel can hear you. With this in practice, the main fleet channel can have a decent amount of chatter (although not an excessive amount), while command channel doesn't have to be distracted. And the FC should have priority speaker so that the orders which he shouts don't get drowned out by comms in the main channels. Logi channel is also a rather useful thing to have, especially when coordinating a cap chain. And then there's the quiet channel, for people who aren't interested in the chatter in the main channel.

It's good to have multiple people in the command channels to do various tasks. Most fleet commanders cannot do everything themselves. Depending on what kind of fleet it is, you might want a mix of the following in command comms in addition to people whose job is to anchor and call targets or be the backup person for that: eyes (interceptors with cloaks fitted, either following hostile fleet, watching hostile staging, or something similar), cynos (make sure that only trusted people light cynos), bridge pilots (I'd expect E-Uni to only need to worry about this in BLOPS fleets), and people coordinating with allies (who will possibly have to dual-comms).

Don't worry about losing bombers and Sabres. They're cheap. You should expect interdictors to die. If they hold the enemy long enough for the enemy to be killed, they succeed. Surviving is an additional bonus which sometimes happens.
Former E-Uni FC (LSC/WHC).

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Lynx Zauberer
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Lynx Zauberer »

Yes, comms was a challenge for that fight, and i will for sure be utilizing a command channel when I can from now on. i like your other suggestions relative to PTT keys, fleets should be fun but efficent, so this balance is something ill be taking on as i go! This unfortunatly was a QRF and i didnt have the wisdom to swap to a command channel, it was truthfully something that never crossed my mind, but i see the value all too well now :P . With experience comes confidence and clever tricks, and ill add that to my clever tricks roster!
Regrettably the cooridination of outside assistance was mainly done outside my influence, but the guys were doing their best to bring content to the people in their corner, and help us out (which im truly greatful for). Next time Ill be better equiped to handle that integration of assets personally, and i look foward to learning more about that side of game politics too haha!
Also, i saw the quick mail TIS sent out, it sent me through the roof with excitment! So cool to play a small part in something that got covered! Been listening to TIS podcasts on car rides to work for the past few months, and ahhhhhhhh :P so cool. its a shame the little bit about the origonal Exotic dancers union moros got lumped in with UF in the BR tool, but i couldnt figure out how to add an additional side, so my bad XD , still was totally Stoked when someone linked a screen shot of the mail in discord! Love what they do!
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Gergoran Moussou
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Re: [AAR] QRF into Cap Fight in PC9-AY

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Yeah, Hippla sent me the BR and an explanation of what happened. That's how TiS found it.
Former E-Uni FC (LSC/WHC).

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