[AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

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BedDaBaws
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[AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

Post by BedDaBaws »

We had rolled into Parabellum looking for a fight, and first engaged their bait megathron in AAF's. They then began to jump in a bunch of legions and a proteus, which we disengaged from and went to reship MS. Turns out they were just about to leave on an eviction fleet, and told us that they would be back in 2 hours to fight again.

We wait the two hours, and lo and behold we see a fleet of 8-9 legions, 2 proteuses, 2 stratioses, and a pilgrim. We again formed up MS, with 4 scimis and 11 drakes. Form up took about 10-15 minutes, which was extended by the fact that it's been a long time since I've last formed up. Finally, I called for undock and told people to align to bacon, where the enemy fleet was orbiting. I discussed warping the logi at range to the wormhole, but when I finally warped the fleet, I forgot to call for logi to exempt from warp and warp themselves. This could have been solved either by putting the logi in a different squad, or telling them to exempt from warp before hand. Either way, the whole fleet takes the warp, and we land on the enemy blob. I begin to target called and target switch because we aren't easily breaking their logi, but we begin losing scimi's due to them being ecm's out by hornet drones. This goes on for a while before all but one of our scimis are left, at which point I call to scatter.


Kills and Losses

Overall we lost:
3xScimitar
1xDrek (Someone who joined late heard drek instead of drake)
1xDNI

And we killed:
1xLogi Legion

https://br.evetools.org/br/603ac52eed8590001b8c93ce


Takeaways from the fight


Positives:
-We were able to test out the new iteration of MS, we have been lacking opportunities for us to form it.
-Form up went quickly once I figured out how I wanted to do it.
-We actually had an excess of scimi pilots, probably could have asked for 1 more to round out the comp, but that would have left us a little light on DD.

Negatives:
-Logi got warped into the enemy fleet at 0, not necessarily bad because it allowed them to hole tank, but also left them in full application range of the enemy fleet
-Logi got ecm'd out of the fight by hornet ec drones. They were holding when not jammed, but ec drones were too much. The flight of acolytes helped somewhat, but was not sufficient in this fight.
-I had a hard time distinguishing between logi and dps legions, which was important for telling the blackbird what to ecm and the drakes what to neut.
-Form up took a while for me to figure out how I wanted to do it. Would have been better had I delegated people or made channels to help me form up my links and mids on the drake.

ISK Lost:
1.85b

ISK Destroyed:
1.02b
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Torg Navatin
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Re: [AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

Post by Torg Navatin »

BedDaBaws wrote: Negatives:
-Logi got warped into the enemy fleet at 0, not necessarily bad because it allowed them to hole tank, but also left them in full application range of the enemy fleet
-Logi got ecm'd out of the fight by hornet ec drones. They were holding when not jammed, but ec drones were too much. The flight of acolytes helped somewhat, but was not sufficient in this fight.
Update from the logi-perspective:

- The main problem with logi being in the brawl was the neuts -- hole tanking doesn't really help there. And Parabellum was actually taking this into account with their Bhaalgorn on the *-side that continued to neut as Yto and I approached *, so we were jumping back into the fight with no cap to begin with (note to self: if you plan on taking Mindflood from the redeem-queue, actually DO IT!) I did not get ECM'd (successfully until very late in the fight).
- At least one Scimi warped at range, though I wouldn't know how he would have ended up 100km from the hole (and how they got back into the fight after that)
- Mike pointed out bad broadcast discipline (well, wouldn't he ;-). I can confirm that I was only looking at broadcasts, and spend most of my time worrying about Yto and Mike than DPS.
- I need a better overview (Friendlies + enemy drones?), or stick with "Combat"-overview and just rely on watchlist/broadcasts. But I like to be able to see buddies in space (distances).
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Gergoran Moussou
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Re: [AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

Post by Gergoran Moussou »

Torg Navatin wrote:
BedDaBaws wrote: Negatives:
-Logi got warped into the enemy fleet at 0, not necessarily bad because it allowed them to hole tank, but also left them in full application range of the enemy fleet
-Logi got ecm'd out of the fight by hornet ec drones. They were holding when not jammed, but ec drones were too much. The flight of acolytes helped somewhat, but was not sufficient in this fight.
Update from the logi-perspective:

- The main problem with logi being in the brawl was the neuts -- hole tanking doesn't really help there. And Parabellum was actually taking this into account with their Bhaalgorn on the *-side that continued to neut as Yto and I approached *, so we were jumping back into the fight with no cap to begin with (note to self: if you plan on taking Mindflood from the redeem-queue, actually DO IT!) I did not get ECM'd (successfully until very late in the fight).
- At least one Scimi warped at range, though I wouldn't know how he would have ended up 100km from the hole (and how they got back into the fight after that)
- Mike pointed out bad broadcast discipline (well, wouldn't he ;-). I can confirm that I was only looking at broadcasts, and spend most of my time worrying about Yto and Mike than DPS.
- I need a better overview (Friendlies + enemy drones?), or stick with "Combat"-overview and just rely on watchlist/broadcasts. But I like to be able to see buddies in space (distances).
Neuts are a thing for logi. Being within range of a Bhaalgorn is not fun if you're flying logi. I vastly prefer having to deal with ECM over having to deal with a Bhaalgorn.

If you don't broadcast, you don't need get reps. It's not logi's fault for not saving people who don't broadcast.

When I fly logi, I generally have the friendlies overview tab open (not that I use it much because I mostly lock from broadcasts). My brackets are set up to still show enemies and their drones, though.

A HAM DNI doctrine was something that I started asking for not long after I first joined WHC, after a fight against WHSOC when they used it (and kept saying that it would be a good idea for the rest of my time in E-Uni, the one lossmail being essentially the fit that I had in mind) so I'm happy to see something like this. Why Scimitar, and not Basilisk, though?
Former E-Uni FC (LSC/WHC).

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Yto Itinen
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Re: [AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

Post by Yto Itinen »

Hey Bed, thanks for forming the fleet and taking us out!

I'm just going to put here some reflections we had during the voice debrief, just so that they don't get lost.

1)With the Scimi we can't have the cake and eat it: either we kite or we hole tank, if we max the build for one thing
the other will pay the price.

2)I suggest we always warp the fleet to a tac on grid before we engage, instead of the hole. Be it engaging or disengaging,
the tactical allows us to correct last second mistakes: warped logi wrong? they land on the tac. someone got tackled last moment? we bounce
back only 150 km, not 15 au to rescue them. Tacs are life, tacs are love!

3)The Scimitar actually has a solution to neuts, and those are called shield maintenance bots. I put a couple mediums in my drone bay,
they probably kept Torg alive on the other side when it was 2 logi vs Bhaal. Scimi drone reps are really strong and drones keep going even
if the Scimi is neuted. So my setup now is 25m3 of warrior II and 20m3 of medium shield bots. Keeping spare locks for killing ecm drones
and also repping fleet mates it's really messy, even for my 10 target locks. Enemy droneball was huge.

4) The blackbird was a newbro and he took a lot of time bouncing away, it's a miracle logi kept it alive. The broadcast discipline was not up to
par with an advanced doctrine for almost all the fleet. Logibros were on point most of the time, especially looking after each other, but the general
feeling was we could have had more broadcasts.

5)This is mostly for the FC, when switching targets using missile boats, leave a bit more time for the missiles to apply. It's different from gunnery,
where switches are more immediate to see. Someone also suggested you do a countdown to volley, so that people have time to decycle the old lock and get the new one.

Hope to fly with you again soon!
o7
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Conci Furiram
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Re: [AAR] Medium Shield vs Parabellum

Post by Conci Furiram »

Make sure to spread out utility slots across the fleet. The one DNI that died has an empty high slot!!

Scimitar Logi is kiting Logi. You wanna get at range ASAP and not try to hole tank a Bhaalgorn and 10 Legions with 2 neuts each.

As you're consistently seeing, a ball of ECM drones is very powerful. There was no mention of using friendly Drake's ECM drones, did that come up?
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