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This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 16:36
by Marcus Arilia
We had a hole not too far from the PC9 pocket, so I thought I’d poke NSC and see what came out.

Engagement #1
There were initially about 18 in local, so I assumed another fleet was roaming through. I bounced my Stilleto around a bit to give myself time for the other fleet to move on. Eventually a Ramjag and Stiletto came out, so I called for some friends to start funneling out and tried to lead them towards our static null. That was working pretty well, once I pulled them into M2- one of the Caracals that was with me got caught on the gate so that’s where we decided to engage. I came in at 70 off the Caracal and the Stiletto quickly burned towards me. A VNI and Caracal broke their gate cloak as well. Surprisingly the Stiletto didn’t scram me, so I pulled range on the cruisers with my MWD. Unfortunately because I was still burning when Ana warped to me she ended up very close to both and got scrammed and died. We managed to grab tackle on things as the rest of our peeps trickled in as we killed stuff. With the Oracle going down on our end it was fairly even.

Engagement #2
I sent the Stiletto back out to look for more pew. Saw two Myrms and a Ferox. Ferox was a ways off and assumed it was rail fit so burned for it. It warped and jumped through along with a Myrm. The other stayed on grid and had a timer from spooling links, so our ragtag group engaged. Judging from the reps and the well over 1k dps we had on grid, it must have been a triple rep. With his boosts we weren’t breaking it. Our Gila got tackled and we decided to sacrifice it for the group as the other Myrm + Ferox along with a Gnosis and light tackle were coming through as well. We lost a Osprey Navy as well on extract due to not burning off far enough before warping out

Engagement #3
We reshipped Kiki/Deacon. Due to a server drop it looked like the 4 of 13 intel network was down so we moved up. Jumped in the Stiletto and saw a Myrm 200+ off. Burned in knowing reinforcements would follow. Stiletto died and I dropped a BM before warping the pod in case I needed to fling. They popped the wreck, but too late and were all at 0 on it. We landed. One of our Kikis didn’t broadcast in time and got popped. We tackled and killed some stuff. Some of the more nano things burned out of our scram range and got off, but a few good kills were had.

BR for #2 and #3

Engagement #4
Figuring we’d give them a chance for another fight we jumped into PC9. Tackled what I can only assume was a sacrificial Augorer and killed it. We burned a little off gate and waited. And waited. We assumed they’d bring a fair fight considering they knew our comp, we were only a few kikis and a few deacons, etc. Boy were we wrong. A Brutix Navy undocked. Okay we can deal with one or two of those. Three execs, a Myrm. Alright may be a little spicy. Execs land near us and we engage them since the only option is to kill the reps. Two go down. Thorax lands, Curse lands, Caracal, in comes a Bhaal.

Seriously guys? Really? Against a 3 dessies + logi you brought a cruiser/BC fleet + a Bhaal? This is why people don’t like you. The next time anyone from EUni wonders why caps get dropped on you, you’re hard countered, or way out numbered, this is why, this right here. I never want to hear a complaint from NSC about overshipping again. On the plus side, it’s good to know it’s not hard to bait out their bling to drop a few carriers on.

1/10:would not try to bring fair fight again.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 16:51
by Yrgrasil
i'm kinda suprised about that salt, you brought 3x kiki, backpack booster with deacon support actually. If these were the regular kiting version the fight would have been easily winable (or at least you shouldn't be at any risk to lose one) from what i see on the br.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 17:03
by Marcus Arilia
If you look at the fits in the lossmails, they were AB/scram. Even if they were kitey with a Curse and Bhaal on grid there’d be too much neut pressure. Fleet wouldn’t be able to get in range without having MWDs shut down due to cap, and then be easy targets for light tackle to grab.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 17:17
by Yrgrasil
a bhaal creates like a 30-35km deathzone, but kikis have 45km range and still be able to push out 400 dps. The curse is here the main problem, but it is not really a issue to stay away, they aren't that fast normally.

Also i said it would be easy to just run away again, or do what kiting groups do - run away and snack everything that comes to close. Fielding trig ships against the uni is kinda cancer imho, and i appreciate that the guys put out decent counters for it.

If you want to fight them in a honorable brawl bring probably some BCs and they will leave the bhaal/curse docked i would assume.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 22:26
by Gergoran Moussou
You had a T2/Triglavian composition and you're complaining about being outshipped by mostly T1 ships with a BNI, Curse, and Bhaalgorn?

You brought fast destroyers and frigates against a brawling composition and you're complaining about how you found yourself stuck in a fight that was stacked against you? Just based on your composition, it's reasonable to expect that you brought a MWD/point/nano fit even though you didn't. Curse and Bhaalgorn are pretty reasonable responses to that sort of thing.

Someone reports a Kikimora gang on intel, I'm not assuming that it's AB/scram. As much as I like brawling, it's just not common enough with those ships that I would respond in any way other than assuming that they're a kiting gang looking to kill a few ratters and get away before an actual fight shows up. If you want them to know that you brought your small ships out for a brawl, you will find that easier if you bring Enyos and Vengeances.

If you want to ignore what I'm telling you because I left J-Space to join a big bloc after my corp went inactive and people from big blocs don't know what they're talking about, go ahead and do that. Instead, you can listen to Yrgrasil or ask your Null blues. Ask Eadrom Vintarus or Matt Ross (I had a bit of a reunion with them and some others on Friday evening, including a familiar TGRAD name on my Muninn's lossmail) how they would have responded if some people jumped out of a wormhole near NSC in Kikimoras? Would they have responded based on you having fit your ships to brawl or would they respond like it's the usual type of Null roaming gang in Kikimoras?

NSC responded appropriately to how people ordinarily fly the ships that you brought. You can't reasonably hold that against them.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.15 22:31
by Marcus Arilia
Our comp was not a surprise. We had just engaged them (engagement 3) and lost a Kiki, so it was pretty clear what our comp was. We also sat on the gate waiting for them to form while they had eyes on us.

The main point in my bit about the final engagement is it was a group of people that constantly complain about how people overship when fighting them and how they don’t get fair fights, so we brought something reasonable. And this is why people overship against them.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 02:23
by Taylor Moon Mahyisti
very sad to hear about this, there is a lot to be learnt from small gang pvp but e-uni usually just throws as many people in as possible and hopes for the best. i fear the art of solo/small gang is becoming more and more extinct :(

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 03:37
by Magnar Eriksson
I logged on towards the end of this and asked in comms what we were fighting and what to bring but didnt get an answer so just brought the thorax.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 03:54
by Magnar Eriksson
Nightmare and Bhaal were defintie overship. However they landed right at the end of the fight and had no impact ôn the outcome. None are on any of the killmails.

They were brought to the engagement due to a lack of communication as to what to bring. The pilot who flew both is a relatively new player who has been used to getting over escalated in quite a number of fights so excepted the same here and as such brought those ships for the next engagements expecting to fight battleships (which sons of bane will quite often upship to)

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 06:39
by Xyrin Bacard
Fight vid here: ... 2nd last battle starts around 4m and final battle at 28m.

Hi! Myrmidon pilot here, the Bhaalgorn at the end was an alt of the BNI pilot and definitely an over-ship. No one asked for it and no one knew about it until it was already on grid. Everyone chewed him out for this afterwards and made it clear to him that this behavior wasn't encouraged here. So I apologize for the over-ship on his behalf. That being said, the Bhaalgorn came too late to to anything in that fight, which is why it didn't even show up on the BR.

The battle report shows 3 Kikis + 3 Deacons + Magus (I don't care it's a backpack, a ship's a ship) vs Myrmidon + BNI + 3 Exeqs + Caracal + Thorax + Curse + Dragoon. I feel like this was a fair fight if not a bit skewed towards us only due to how powerful the Curse was in that engagement, we would've easily lost without it. You can't really say we "overshipped" if the two Kikis we killed were worth as much as everything on our side of the BR. If anything, this proves we made good use of our intel from the last engagement to devise an efficient counter to your comp.

Not trying to say we're good at planning or anything, just that the comp you had is stupidly easy to counter and not something I would want to roam nullsec with. Like we had a barely coherent plan, horrible execution of it (logi getting caught early on, BNI being hull tanked instead of armor, shield Caracal with armor logi) on top of a cheaper and overall lower sp comp. Despite all that, we still managed to counter you and win. Perhaps you should rethink the comps you bring out to roam with.

Anyways, the first few fights with you guys were fun, I hope to see you around soon!

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 09:14
by White 0rchid
A kiki comp in null is 99% a kiting comp. They are good snipers for picking off targets at range. Despite the first one being AB, if I were in that position I would not have ruled out the second engagement going kitey Kiki (as the first one as brawly evidently didn't work). I also wouldn't expect your typical EUNI response fleet to be able to go through that process anyway (no offense intended). I think you're just angry you lost.

Re: This is why you don’t get fair fights

PostPosted: 2020.01.16 14:39
by Gergoran Moussou
White 0rchid wrote:I also wouldn't expect your typical EUNI response fleet to be able to go through that process anyway (no offense intended).

My thoughts. I'd expect there to be people around who have an idea of how the ship is usually fit and come up with an idea for how to respond according to that. I wouldn't expect much more from many people unless the two groups encountered each other often enough and one side flew AB brawling Kikimoras often enough that it was noteworthy as a thing that they did.