[AAR] 2019-11-28 @20:00 Arty Ruptures

[Yrgrasil]

Roam members (22)

Spoiler

Anor Noban
Asuka Rossi - Keres
Avrin Dennard - Rupture
Callum Aishai - Osprey
Christoph Patrouette - Osprey
Devola Gestalt - Osprey
Ersin Oghuz - Hurricane
Erwin Madelung - Hurricane
Ged Sinak - Malediction
Ghad Makanen - Rupture
Giacomo Belenos - Bellicose
Gokym Ovaert - Rupture
Hikaru Sakai - Osprey
Jexexex - Hyena
Ky Hanomaa - Malediction
Metti ar Virksen - Osprey
Nelliver Cadigal - Rupture
Squin Ti - Rupture
Tatami - Rupture
Velts Engren - Rupture
Yrgrasil - Hurricane
Yto Itinen - Rupture

As usual a mildly awful newbro speech and then some wormholes (thanks to squin ti for scanning) until we arrived in http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Malpais/APES-G#npc_delta , nearby in malpais were some ratting systems we checked and while doing that we sorted out the usual starting issues with aligning and a short explanation about how alpha doctrines work.

On the way we visited some Systems in Spire which were sadly empty, after that going forward to Etherium Reach and after checking http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Etherium_ ... #npc_delta we had some systems further some short break and one of us had sadly to leave.

While waiting horde seem to formup slowly behind us, which was kinda unexpected (their staging is normally in front of us, but i guess i missed some jump bridge), but as i waited for the last guy to come back on the gate, they slowly spiked in. So i called anchor on the other side and tried to pull some range of the gate.

Target calling was kinda unspectacular, since they fielded no logi and mostly battleships there was mostly shoot at lock instead the counting down thing called. We lost some ruptures kinda early and after that they went for our logi. I actually assume they fell behind a bit, not yet sure why, but i either assume devola (logi fc) either did not got the call where my align point was, direct web/scram on those and/or our newbro logis (i think 1-2 were completly new) turned off the prop as i called that for mainfleet. But either way it was okay for me, since we didn't lost lots of dps in the first half and could focus down targets. Or in other words i happily sacrifized our logi wing to get some more kills (sorry )

Noticeable calls were probably the hic which was suprisingly squishy and died kinda quick, an typhoon which mjed out before we could kill it and a dominix which was hull tanked, i kinda early switched away from that one. In retro i should have tried a nightmare which was most of the time kinda close to us. I heard during the fleet several times that we have neuts heavily affect fleet, but for whatever reason i didn't called the geddon at any point.
While nearly all were dead we got some nice last kill on a harbinger navy which made my day.

Scouts did as usual a good job tackling, sadly my hyena died kinda early in the beginning.

Kills and Losses

BR: https://br.inyour.space/?s=2378&b=8893260&e=90&t=r

(21:24:05) DYPL-6
Sabre +94.83m
Devoter +464.56m
Rupture -25.19m
Typhoon +220.37m
Capsule +0.01m
Rupture -51.8m
Sabre +83.52m
Osprey -16.82m
Rupture -21.72m
Capsule -0.01m
Osprey -16.83m
Hyena -47.56m
Osprey -14.09m
Bellicose -33.57m
Rupture -27.61m
Typhoon +233.84m
Osprey -15.59m
Slasher +0.49m
Osprey -8.01m
Bifrost +111.45m
Rupture -27.61m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Rupture -36.66m
Hurricane -57.29m
Rupture -27.62m
Harbinger Navy Issue +193.41m
Capsule -0.01m
Hurricane -62.17m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

After that we had a short debrief for the srp stuff and since we had wartargets in Amy i send them to hsc chat again. The remaining keres, rupture, 2x maledictions and my cane could travel back without problems. There was no Incursion on the route back, everyone who tells you that was just sleepy and dreamed...

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 1,402,485,536.92
ISK Lost: 490,181,886.94
ISK Delta: 912,303,649.98
Efficiency: 74.101%


---

- trading went fine, i'm just a little bit sad about our logis this time
- target calling was okay i think, some mistakes were made
- last propmod on call was like a cycle to slow
- for whatever reason our logis could not get ahead of us intime
- movement was fine, i messed up the break a bit, if we were like 10-15s faster we could have anchored up properly and got a better position <-- this is actually the main issue in my eyes, but well, nothing works as planned normally

[Squin Ti]

Really enjoyed this fleet. They nicely delivered my corpse to me in a station in the system.

Thanks for the loan of a ship to get blown up so I could come!

[Christoph Patrouette]

VIDEO

Please excuse my total inability to multitask and read the situation....first time logi in quite some time and this one was pretty overwhelming.

[Velts Engren]

That was a super fun fleet, thanks a lot for that. I'll come again to get blown into pieces.

[Giacomo Belenos]

Glad I participed in this fleet, it was fun !

The break right before the fight was shorter than I excepted, had to rush to my computer when I saw I was alone on a gate, with four ships on my overview. I apologize, since it seems the anchor didn't go properly because of me.

Can't wait to get blown up in another battle !

(I'll be faster next time)

[Yrgrasil]

Please excuse my total inability to multitask and read the situation....first time logi in quite some time and this one was pretty overwhelming.

Its a e-uni fleet, mistakes happen, no reason to excuse if you have the shakes. If you all would play perfect it would probably get boring for me There is a reason i do these dryruns about anchoring, aligning etc every time again. This time i should have done definitly some more runs with anchoring actually by the looks of it.
Also as logi, since some of you were kinda new in that role, i should probably hammer into you that you all focus on reps, it looks like you somehow identified as a dd for the first half, and yeh i know that this one damn warrior drone is tempting to get on killmails.

[Tal Tracyn]

I watched the video and i noticed a certain logi pilot repping a typhoon

[Erwin Madelung]

This was another very nice fleet by you, Yrg. The fight was fun.

- last propmod on call was like a cycle to slow

That was already my feedback after the fleet. The Ruptures are a bit difficult in regards of cap. On top of that many new players don’t have perfect skills which makes it even more difficult to manage cap for the fleet as an FC. Overall, I think you did good there.
Stronger kiting and then Tremor (T2 long range ammo) and 50% bigger fleet would have been good, but this isn’t possible with the restrictions given be eve uni fleets. Here a comparison of damage by range to explain to the others what I mean: https://i.imgur.com/0mLHMJf.png With Tremor, Yrg could have aimed to kite at 60-70 km instead of 40-60 km without losing a lot of DPS. But as I’ve said those are simply the restrictions of new players.

Another topic right after the fleet was the positioning of the logis. As you can see in the video they didn’t kept the prop mod on and didn’t continue to take range. The logis should try to be about 30km away from the DPS ships on the other side of the hostile. (The 30km because a) it’s about the optimal of the remote reps and b) the command burst range with “normal” skills is about 35 km. If you have link pilots which are dedicated skilled into it it’s a good bit more though.) As ospreys are very cap stable even with low skill you should simply keep the MWD on in such an engagement. When Yrg called prop off, the logi anchor should have said on whisper key “local logis keep you prop on”. This is what logi coms are for. The key word local tells the people on coms that he’s whispering in that moment.

Some more remarks towards logi piloting. This is mostly towards Christoph’s video. It’s a bit unfair because a video always puts the pilot recording under a microscope, and we all do errors, but I think other people can learn something from this.
First, you want to pre-lock more fleet members. Yrg called for logis to take special care of one frigate each and coordinate this. This meant you should have one of the frigates pre-locked. Further, the logi anchor and FC need to be pre-locked. First to keep them alive but this also gives you an easy way to see if you are too far from anchor.
Second, you should not lock up hostiles in such a fight as logi. If you gank a single target and you don’t think anyone will need reps, sure, out with the drones and paint your killboard a bit green. But here you lose focus for what is important. At about 2:30 you rep a hostile If you want to get on some killmails get your drones out and assign them to a damage dealer. In this fleet Yrg would have been a good choide.
Third, if you fully repped someone free reps. At minute 3:00 you logis catch the Nelliver from dying. Around 3:30 he doesn’t need reps anymore. But you don’t notice because you are busy with your drones. At 3:38 Callum broadcasts for reps. If you pay attention and have reps already free you could already then rep him. But this way he dies.
Like I’ve said it’s a bit unfair to pick someone who shares a video apart, but I think other logis can learn from that too. (I myself am mostly a logi pilot who flies logi in nearly every fleet.)

Cheers and see you all on the next fleet.

[Christoph Patrouette]

I watched the video and i noticed a certain logi pilot repping a typhoon

As you can see, the target i actually wanted to rep popped a second earlier and so my active target switched to the typhoon.....once logi goes to killmails, that wont happen any more.

Also, stagger stagger stagger the reps!

EDIT: Also, what Erwin said.

[Devola Gestalt]

This logi FC/anchor is so bad, I wonder why Yrgrasil keep choosing this clown as logi FC every fleet... He can't even pronounce "webbed" correctly with his french accent...

Oh wait, it's me ! Mmmmh...

Back to serious mode now. Honestly I was coming here thinking I did an okayish (= could certainly be better, but no huge fail) job as logi FC, but it seems I'm alone to think that It's good to have some discussion going on this role, because it's not directly taught in the Uni (contrary to FC or scout for example), but doing it well is not a trivial matter. All I can do is trial/error and learn from it.

My little logi FC AAR (video timestamps)

At 0:35 FC gives me a general direction where he'll place the fleet, so I align myself there. Since he's telling folks to anchor/boost/prop-on, I don't bother to repeat that. However some logi pilots were still behind, so I call for logi props around 1:10. Here's possibly my 1st mistake: in the FC newbro speech, tell people that when FC calls to anchor & prop-on, it also applies to logi. Ideally I would be much faster to see if some logibro is left behind... but usual logi activities + anchor management (=read the grid & manual piloting) + comms management doesn't leave much time for that.

At 1:40 the logi anchor is at a decent spot, but most of the squad is still behind, despite my little call to prop-on at 1:10. I should talk louder & repeat my commands on comms. It's not in my personality to talk over people and usually in fleet you're taught to not speak over FC, but here is clearly a situation where you should totally whisper over FC to your logi wing, because 90% of what the FC says at this point is target calling, which isn't useful for logi.

At 2:00 the squad is finally at a decent place. At that point you can see a few frigates who are doing stuff at ~50km from the main DD blob. So the small ships dying fast might be slightly a bit their fault too However, I should have arranged at formup to have at least 1 logibro permalocking each frigate, and probably tell them to let logi drones on them.

At 2:50, I silently start to prop-on for repositioning, but don't tell my squad about it. Between not being very talkative by nature, and the fight starting to be very intense at this point for logi, it seems that announcing "prop mode on" on comms was one of the many tasks that was labelled as "not a priority, focus on the rest". Now that I watch it on video, I can say it wasn't the best judgement.

At 3:00, you see some logi not turning their prop mod while FC is asking for it. I should really insist that this order also apply to the logi wing at formup. Even add that you can keep it on 1 or 2 cycles more than what is asked to the DD.

At 3:10-3:40, you see a DD squad getting some distance fast, but a logi wing staying still. Which is bad. At 3:40 I announce to FC that logi anchor is full of webs (stuck at 200m/s to be precise). I can't say for how long it was so, but I was so much vision tunneling on watchlists/broadcastlist/reppers/heat and usual logi stuff, that it could have been so for ages...

At 3:50 I finally get out of webs, and again because of tunnel visioning I probably didn't noticed it until much later. but at this point the logi squad is totally out of position. Others either have turned their prop mod off (well I should have told them to turn it on, but at this point I might have still have not realised I'm not webbed anymore), or are webbed/scrammed I guess. So logi squad will remain split on grid until then end.

At 4:30-5:00 My personal positioning was Ok. I even did a pause at 4:30 when I saw a few cruisers lagging behind the blob so most of the fleet would be kept at rep range, then moving again 15sec again when they started to catch up. I was pretty happy at this point because I was in an OK spot, I was repping stuff myself, I didn't make my usual mistake of burning out of range of some people taking damage... But hey, guess who is the squad leader who forgot to tell his squad to prop-on/off for 4min now ?

On the bright side, I'm getting better at identifying who is going down and informing the FC. I'm still probably missing half of them, but that's 50% more success rate than usual.

After the fleet I saw some logi newbro telling that he didn't have his hardeners on. I think I did specify that once the cap chain is up & there are hostiles, they can be always on. It's something that experienced logi pilots usually manage themselves, but I have to keep in mind that in the Uni there are some young people who could always use a reminder.

TL;DR:

• Be more vocal: it's totally OK to cover the FC target calling in the logi comms via whisper channel. However I don't know if my voice has priority over his in our little squad ? Deciding to talk over FC is something I'll have to work on myself. Actually covering Yrgrasil on comms might be too much of a challenge for me
• Delegate: It might be because I don't have enough experience, or because I'm bad. But I think I'm trying to do too many things, and end up doing most of them badly. If there's a next time I'll delegate a part of the burden, for example:
  • announcing who is going down to FC ("1 DD down" / "1 logi down"). In fact, it would be much simpler if people tell it themselves when they die
  • anchor
  • squad leader can focus on prop on-off / calling over heat, and looking for out of position logibros (and yelling at them)
  • Everybody look at their distance from anchor from time to time, and prop back to position if needed
• more complete logi FC speech
• I don't know what I should have done when I was webbed, in addition to telling the FC. Have another logi anchor step up ?
• As said by someone else: prop mod always on for ospreys is better than splitting the blob. It's better to turn it off when not needed to avoid the sig radius penalty (especially with all these battleships on grid), but that's a bit too much to do with a relatively new logi FC leading other newbros.

To all logi: there's a warrior in the BLAP Osprey to get on killmails. You are free to use it to do so, but if you value your efficiency in fleet more than your killboard, you can/should totally use logi drones only and focus on the repping. There is usually plenty of small logi bots in HSC freshman hangars if you wish to do so.

As usual, thanks for the fleet. It was fun.
o7

[Yrgrasil]

Back to serious mode now. Honestly I was coming here thinking I did an okayish (= could certainly be better, but no huge fail) job as logi FC, but it seems I'm alone to think that It's good to have some discussion going on this role, because it's not directly taught in the Uni (contrary to FC or scout for example), but doing it well is not a trivial matter. All I can do is trial/error and learn from it.

Don't worry i'm still happy with you, and your Logi cat herding.
Also there was a huge improvement to the last fleets since you called me every now and then if we lost something. Even if i don't directly react to it, i've normally the fleet comp somewhat in my head, but as i wrote above trading logi for kills was okay for me in that case, if we had lost more dds in the beginning i would have considered to disengage most likely.

At 0:35 FC gives me a general direction where he'll place the fleet, so I align myself there. Since he's telling folks to anchor/boost/prop-on, I don't bother to repeat that. However some logi pilots were still behind, so I call for logi props around 1:10. Here's possibly my 1st mistake: in the FC newbro speech, tell people that when FC calls to anchor & prop-on, it also applies to logi. Ideally I would be much faster to see if some logibro is left behind... but usual logi activities + anchor management (=read the grid & manual piloting) + comms management doesn't leave much time for that.

I think for my fleets it is probably better if we make it a general rule that logi keeps propmode on all the time, at least for the ospreys. Considering we have everytime a ton of newbros it is easier for them to run them as default. And only if the explicit command from you comes to turn it off.

At 1:40 the logi anchor is at a decent spot, but most of the squad is still behind, despite my little call to prop-on at 1:10. I should talk louder & repeat my commands on comms. It's not in my personality to talk over people and usually in fleet you're taught to not speak over FC, but here is clearly a situation where you should totally whisper over FC to your logi wing, because 90% of what the FC says at this point is target calling, which isn't useful for logi.

At 2:00 the squad is finally at a decent place. At that point you can see a few frigates who are doing stuff at ~50km from the main DD blob. So the small ships dying fast might be slightly a bit their fault too However, I should have arranged at formup to have at least 1 logibro permalocking each frigate, and probably tell them to let logi drones on them.

Yeah, thats what i meant with i'm happy with you, you got yourself into an decent position (at least for a while) and only some of the ospreys behind started to get shot. Above statement of the propmode still stands here, it would probably safed some of them.

At 3:10-3:40, you see a DD squad getting some distance fast, but a logi wing staying still. Which is bad. At 3:40 I announce to FC that logi anchor is full of webs (stuck at 200m/s to be precise). I can't say for how long it was so, but I was so much vision tunneling on watchlists/broadcastlist/reppers/heat and usual logi stuff, that it could have been so for ages...

At 3:50 I finally get out of webs, and again because of tunnel visioning I probably didn't noticed it until much later. but at this point the logi squad is totally out of position. Others either have turned their prop mod off (well I should have told them to turn it on, but at this point I might have still have not realised I'm not webbed anymore), or are webbed/scrammed I guess. So logi squad will remain split on grid until then end.

Yeh at 3:05ish i call to propmode for dd, that is basically for you as anchor the command to start moving in the assumed direction already (I'll normally try to wait 2-3 seconds before i turn on my own mwd, but not always). If your wing was for example like 20-30km behind us, that would buy you enough time to correct the position when the dd wing finally moves.
But also requires that your wing has either mwd already on, or reacts in time to my command in this case.

On the bright side, I'm getting better at identifying who is going down and informing the FC. I'm still probably missing half of them, but that's 50% more success rate than usual.

As i said in the beginning already, this one was really helpful for my decision making. As you say its not that easy to have an overview over everything if you anchor, call targets etc, so everything that gives me some useful infos from the side is helpful and appreciated.

• Be more vocal: it's totally OK to cover the FC target calling in the logi comms via whisper channel. However I don't know if my voice has priority over his in our little squad ? Deciding to talk over FC is something I'll have to work on myself. Actually covering Yrgrasil on comms might be too much of a challenge for me
• Delegate: It might be because I don't have enough experience, or because I'm bad. But I think I'm trying to do too many things, and end up doing most of them badly. If there's a next time I'll delegate a part of the burden, for example:
  • announcing who is going down to FC ("1 DD down" / "1 logi down"). In fact, it would be much simpler if people tell it themselves when they die
  • anchor
  • squad leader can focus on prop on-off / calling over heat, and looking for out of position logibros (and yelling at them)
  • Everybody look at their distance from anchor from time to time, and prop back to position if needed
• more complete logi FC speech
• I don't know what I should have done when I was webbed, in addition to telling the FC. Have another logi anchor step up ?
• As said by someone else: prop mod always on for ospreys is better than splitting the blob. It's better to turn it off when not needed to avoid the sig radius penalty (especially with all these battleships on grid), but that's a bit too much to do with a relatively new logi FC leading other newbros.

I would not start to delegate most of the role to others, lets start with the "always prodmode on the logi" thing and you concentrate next round on the logi wing position. Its similiar to our all early days in a logi, repping the people, having eyes on watchlist and cap chain is already pain, but we all wanted to whore also on kills with drones. Now, after some month or years, these tasks seem easy and we barely can remember why it was so challenging. Its the same with anchoring, focus on that one, reps are second, your wing will take care of broadcasts, when you've time you join and keep us other alive.

I know i expect a ton from my snowflakes if its now ewar, scout or logi fc. And you all will grow into this roles.

[Metti ar Virksen]

I also had a good time with the fleet and I usually fly logi so thought that went well...until it didn't. I had heard the call to permalock the Hyena and Keres so I did--both of them but that meant I lost some rep agility with the last rep. As for cap chain buddies, probably should have divided up the frigate permalocks among us all. I totally did not see that logi anchor was webbed and consequently how out of position we were. And of course, I pulsed the propmod like everyone else did.

I didn't see as many rep broadcasts as I'm used to, so a friendly reminder to the DD folk--I don't recall the broadcast for reps as part of the newbro speech either, but that could have been just me. I did see need cap broadcasts but couldn't do much about that as I usually try not to break cap chain. Need to practice that and find out when it's OK.

.mav

[Hikaru Sakai]

I watched the video and i noticed a certain logi pilot repping a typhoon

I saw that as well.