[AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

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Ares Dodekatheon
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Ares Dodekatheon »

Devola Gestalt wrote:o/
  • The fleet channel: reserved to questions/x-ing/intel/info that are useful to the operation
  • A separate channel in free comms at all times (usual Uni rules of political correctness still apply)
Anyone is free to ignore the 2nd channel and just read the 1st when attention is required elsewhere, or they don't like memes.
This is a very good idea Devola. Not only for big OPs but maybe for all roams we can use a separate "Chatter Channel" to keep the "Fleet Channel" clean.

Yeah, I did like it. ;-)
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Ersin Oghuz »

This was a good operation. Thanks to all people who organized this for their logistics and tactical efforts. This kind of operations generally involves some intense preparation period generally not seen to public eyes :) So good job.

I was in a logistics squad in this fleet and chosen as anchor. It was not my first time in logistics but probably my first time as an anchor. Logistics itself generally is very intense but being an anchor seems to add more to it :) Mike, logistics squad FC, generally reminded people to keep their anchor on me so people followed it and we had no problem of having drifting ships out of our range. Although at the final moments of the fleet I did a mistake, probably misclicked in space and drifted away from the combat fleet hence took the whole logistics with me :D When I noticed it, we were almost at our range to apply logistics and thankfully we have returned to our optimals fast ! Please notify if you saw any other manual piloting / anchor lead mistakes from me.

Devola emphasized several good points in his post as well. I, myself, used the fleet channel for regular chat as well, but never continue when someone ask for help. So I think best to extend combat comms for fleet chat as well as voice comms. So when FC calls for combat comms that also applies to fleet chat as well. Also best to ask questions prior to the fleet departure time while everyone has more time to answer questions as well. Right after newbro speech is generally the best time. Also yes, please do not answer any question that you don't know the 100% correct answer. That will lead further confusion if the answer was not true. Help your fleetmates for sure, but make sure that you are passing the correct answer :) An alternative to this maybe to implement a channel specifically for fleet preparation for big operations, such as x-ing up, questions and newbro speech. Or move this to already built in Alliance chat where we do advert our fleets and such. And for chatter using Corp channel. Since that channel is mostly not used due to campus chat channels.

Also the lost ships from WHC fleet was noted. I really do appreciate the WHC coming out to HS , after tireless efforts on their part to roll a good wormhole and etc, and really liked the idea of having an auxilary fleet to add more spice to the operation! Although I need to say, the loss of those ships did not serve any purpose against a single structure without any defense fleet. ABCs are great tools. But while using them you should take necessary precautions to evacuate from the battlefield when you are under heavy attack. Pre align and then shoot. We had a large squad of logistics and yet it seems EUNI fleet lost BCs. The lost Griffin that I do not have any objection since Griffins can be accepted as ammo rather then ships and you can always bring EWAR to fleet and it won't hurt. Having ECM on field may come in handy always. They could jam the structure fighters :)

I particulary liked how the fleet members travel in such organized manner and followed the FCs command at the structure bash. No one broke any gate cloak until FC told them to align and etc. And all ships followed the commands on grid. The fleet discipline I can say was good on that part.

Overally, my evaluations, this fleet , even though there were some minor issues, was a good and succesful one ! Congratulations to FCs, organizers (managers & directors) , haulers, and all fleet members, including combat, logistics, and ewar.
Last edited by Ersin Oghuz on 2019.11.27 13:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Laura Karpinski »

Ersin Oghuz wrote:Although at the final moments of the fleet I did a mistake, probably misclicked in space and drifted away from the combat fleet hence took the whole logistics with me :D
Oh I see how it is. Salty alumni makes sabotage attempt :lol: ❤️
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Yrgrasil »

I basically agree with Devola's post, but some additions from my side
  • - the supply for people who can't fly ferox/osprey was kinda confusing or somehow random. I know there was lots of other stuff to do, but it somehow felt like there was no plan for them. So if i remember right it was called to get into blap caracals, and at some point HM caracals were handed out or at least used.
  • - during the 2nd fleet we had basically not one hard tackle, as in a lachesis or even a hic. For the final fleet we had only a lachesis but no Huginn. There is a ton of control and damage potential wasted by not having those. Normally these ships win you the fights, there is a reason huginns get basically always primaried in those fleets.
  • - several people offered to bring boost feroxes during formup of both fleets. Just take them, delegate someone to sort out who runs which "backup" boost. The fcc ferox with boosts looses approx 4k ehp and 20km drone range, but gets some more resists and catches reps better. There is literally no reason to restrict the fleet to the main boosters in command ships.
While all in all the movement, comms, logistics etc were fine or at least okay, i would say the formup definitely needs to get better by the FCs. Make a checklist if all roles are filled, write down the average ranges of the doctrines (i think the caracal fc asked at some point what the lowest range on his wing is), delegate tasks to others, maybe with subchannels etc.
It felt like, we haul a ton of ships over, you pick one and then we hope the blob will sort it out instead of a decent planned operation imho.

--

Take the above of course with a grain of salt, in the end we won and we can continue clapping shoulders of people. Also there is not often a chance to practice that and most were never in a fleet this size before. But i think if we had a halfway serious doctrine on the other side like leshaks or whatever we would have run into some problems pretty fast.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Turlough Dominian »

Yrgrasil wrote:
  • - the supply for people who can't fly ferox/osprey was kinda confusing or somehow random. I know there was lots of other stuff to do, but it somehow felt like there was no plan for them. So if i remember right it was called to get into blap caracals, and at some point HM caracals were handed out or at least used.
For the ferox's I had organised them at location
and the reason for handing them out as apposed to making contracts was so that isk wouldn't be a reason for not flying one cause some people can't afford to buy a random ferox for a one off event so i literally lent them to people and worked on the honor system for getting them back.

Ospreys same story only had 20 at location tho slightly lower than i wanted as id of liked more reships for the ospreys.

The blap caracels where mentioned so people who did not have skills for ferox would be able to sit in something , I made no effort on moving any of those down myself .

There is another element to the fleet that i scirt over a good bit and thats the other ships i had at location.
I had 2 extra docterines at location for if we got into an actual fight, so i had 3 doctrines available but i only told people about 1.
I also had a group of ships for higher sp players that could fit in relatively ok for 2 out of the 3 doctrines.
The other two docterines however i wont be mentioning what they where cause then i loose that surprise factor and the o is that all xD

Copy paste from original post for the 3rd operation:
There will be Ferox's available at target location and ospreys also, If people can bring there own that increases the amount of reships we have in the area.
But don't panick if you can't get one ahead of time we will sort you out at location if needed.

^^not sure where the confusion part comes from, i said there would be ships at location and there was, everyone who requested one got one
only thing was leading up to the fleet i didn't mention how one would aquire there loaner ship but that was covered during the fleet several times
So perhaps learning from that might specify specifically how one will aquire ship at location if i was to organise another one of these


on other note your mention of not much tackle for the 2nd bash definitely not enough at all and i didn't have any ships hidden away at location to rectify that
For 3rd bash we didn't have much by the way of tackle on grid but i did have some hidden away in the station
But yes definitely lacking in the tackle department
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Affra »

I wasn't able to attend, but I must say the WHC showing was an embarrassment, not sure who organized that part.

I remember times where WHC took the opportunity to show off proper fleet compositions for structure bashes, since the SP requirement is/was a bit higher, this was a proper failure, and a great opportunity for improvement WHC.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Turlough Dominian »

and dang guys thanks all for the feedback some very good write ups and lots to take away and learn from for this <3

again thanks all for coming
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Turlough Dominian »

Affra wrote:I wasn't able to attend, but I must say the WHC showing was an embarrassment, not sure who organized that part.

I remember times where WHC took the opportunity to show off proper fleet compositions for structure bashes, since the SP requirement is/was a bit higher, this was a proper failure, and a great opportunity for improvement WHC.
Think embarrassment is a tad strong, definitely should of not lost those ships the way they where lost thats for sure from what i gather the fc is relatively new.

I actually think one of the mistakes also lie's with me personally on that one , they told me what they where bringing and i presumed they would stay off grid unless a fight broke out so my presumption was a mistake and i should of requested that they dont land on grid unless needed, which i totally didn't think at the time to say.

I did ask them at one stage if they where staying in separate fleet or joining ours and they said would remain separate, as a few people mentioned whc not merging with fleet right away was slow and should of been done sooner, so ill take that one myself i should have just said hop in our fleet.

For doctrine they used probably should have picked a shield one IMO since we had a huge logi wing.

But hey this is e-uni we bound to make mistakes the main thing is once we try to learn and improve <3
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Yrgrasil »

Turlough Dominian wrote:
Yrgrasil wrote:
  • - the supply for people who can't fly ferox/osprey was kinda confusing or somehow random. I know there was lots of other stuff to do, but it somehow felt like there was no plan for them. So if i remember right it was called to get into blap caracals, and at some point HM caracals were handed out or at least used.
For the ferox's I had organised them at location
and the reason for handing them out as apposed to making contracts was so that isk wouldn't be a reason for not flying one cause some people can't afford to buy a random ferox for a one off event so i literally lent them to people and worked on the honor system for getting them back.

Ospreys same story only had 20 at location tho slightly lower than i wanted as id of liked more reships for the ospreys.

The blap caracels where mentioned so people who did not have skills for ferox would be able to sit in something , I made no effort on moving any of those down myself .
I don't mentioned the ferox/ospreys since i think those were organised fine, but the post stated also the caracal, and during fleet formup it was several times called that there will be ships as handout for those who don't have a ship [in amy] ready. I'm kinda sure some guys misunderstood that and assumed there is also caracals available.

It is perfectly fine to say that those guys can go station spinning if they die during a fight since there is no reships available, but i think a short call with solitude some days before would have solved that easily. As far as i am aware they have caracals on stock anyway.

Turlough Dominian wrote: There is another element to the fleet that i scirt over a good bit and thats the other ships i had at location.
I had 2 extra docterines at location for if we got into an actual fight, so i had 3 doctrines available but i only told people about 1.
I also had a group of ships for higher sp players that could fit in relatively ok for 2 out of the 3 doctrines.
The other two docterines however i wont be mentioning what they where cause then i loose that surprise factor and the o is that all xD
Getting to station, handing out, and sorting everything out for a fleet this size takes probably at least 10-15minutes depending on how many specific roles there is, not even counting in the time we lost while fighting until the decision is made to switch doctrines. For uni i would actually add some extra minutes onto it. It is a nice wishful thinking, but works actually nearly only in theory, and by the time everything is done the structure is most likely already repped.

Also don't overestimate the surprise factor, there is a reason why there is standards in the current meta regarding doctrines. If you field something untested/unusual then a good chunk of the linemembers can probably not even fly it, and the FCs have normally not the experience to field something new in the first run halfway effective as it was designed. Not even to mention that theorycrafted doctrines look often nice on paper but just don't work.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Anidien Dallacort »

I don't mentioned the ferox/ospreys since i think those were organised fine, but the post stated also the caracal, and during fleet formup it was several times called that there will be ships as handout for those who don't have a ship [in amy] ready. I'm kinda sure some guys misunderstood that and assumed there is also caracals available.

It is perfectly fine to say that those guys can go station spinning if they die during a fight since there is no reships available, but i think a short call with solitude some days before would have solved that easily. As far as i am aware they have caracals on stock anyway.
I certainly fell into this situation as noted in my earlier writeup. Good news was, there were a few Caracals on contract in Boystin (thanks Solibros!). This supplied the ship I ended up using, but reship would have been tough. Even if there were any left in stock, that would have required running the pipe back.

But it’s understandable if Caracals are more snowflake and less doctrine for that situation.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Ersin Oghuz »

Laura Karpinski wrote:
Ersin Oghuz wrote:Although at the final moments of the fleet I did a mistake, probably misclicked in space and drifted away from the combat fleet hence took the whole logistics with me :D
Oh I see how it is. Salty alumni makes sabotage attempt :lol: ❤️
Damn, my evil plot was discovered :twisted: :lol: ❤️

For the newbros who cannot get into Feroxes, a secondary /aux shield doctrine can be helpful , although I am more inclined to hero tackles, lots of them :D But of course manual piloting, surviving in a tackle ship, fleet commands, and spiralling should be taught regularly :) Also longbow dessies can also be considered. 10-15 newbros in them can give some decent damage boost.
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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Croixant »

All,

Please remember that if you participated in this Structure Bash op it can be used toward your Cross Campus Initiative program!

As a bonus, you can apply it to your "home" campus or Solitude, your choice.

Stay Thirsty my Friends!

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Re: [AAR] Structure Bash vs war-target HQ

Post by Erywin Chelien »

Turlough Dominian wrote:
Affra wrote:I wasn't able to attend, but I must say the WHC showing was an embarrassment, not sure who organized that part.

I remember times where WHC took the opportunity to show off proper fleet compositions for structure bashes, since the SP requirement is/was a bit higher, this was a proper failure, and a great opportunity for improvement WHC.
Think embarrassment is a tad strong, definitely should of not lost those ships the way they where lost thats for sure from what i gather the fc is relatively new.

I actually think one of the mistakes also lie's with me personally on that one , they told me what they where bringing and i presumed they would stay off grid unless a fight broke out so my presumption was a mistake and i should of requested that they dont land on grid unless needed, which i totally didn't think at the time to say.

I did ask them at one stage if they where staying in separate fleet or joining ours and they said would remain separate, as a few people mentioned whc not merging with fleet right away was slow and should of been done sooner, so ill take that one myself i should have just said hop in our fleet.

For doctrine they used probably should have picked a shield one IMO since we had a huge logi wing.

But hey this is e-uni we bound to make mistakes the main thing is once we try to learn and improve <3
Just a few things from a WHC perspective as I don't know if anybody has chimed in yet.

Most of us had gotten on 1-2 hrs beforehand to start rolling Eggs, our Hisec connection, to try and get a connection in Soli. We had a backup connection that was I think 14 jumps from the staging system, but we were hoping for something closer in case we needed to reship quickly. As we were rolling Eggs, we found some content and were engaged by another fleet. During this time people were logging in and asking what to bring, we told them that our Nano ships (which are mostly shield tanked) would fit and give us good engagement if another fleet opposed us. We fought, lost some ships, blew up some ships and had fun. At that point it was too late to keep rolling Eggs so we took our backup connection and made our way to the fight.

After landing on grid we started getting primaried due to us being "snowflakes" compared to the rest of the fleet. Many of us don't have any experience engaging structures even though we do a lot of PVP, so we didn't realize that the Athanor would have a 300km range. After we lost a few folks, we jumped to a ping and then joined fleet, at which point a few of us warped to the main fleet and started bashing until we ran out of Cap!

Things we learned:
- We should've had a bit more communication between the main fleet and our fleet, were we just backup or should we help bash too? Though we were easily at damage cap with the huge blob.
- We should've joined the main fleet when we got into the system and warped either to an off grid ping or to the main fleet, not to the other side of the Athanor ><

In the end WHC had a lot of fun and we were glad to be able to be there, even if they didn't drop a fleet on us. We learned things for next time, which we will be more prepared for. Thanks to those organizing the event and letting us show up in our snowflakes!

Cheers,
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