[AAR] Proxy for Savannah Tokila

[Zako Maken]

As Savannah (the FC) is busy IRL, I'm just running the AAR too and then posting what she said in slack.

Roam members (18)

Spoiler

Affra - Talos
Ana'ander Lamora - Oracle, Ferox, Stabber, Ashimmu
Aren Dar - Scythe
DonBasuno Ichosira - Ferox
Drake Shea - Oracle, Scythe
Frell Maken - Anathema
Hannah Onasi
Mikus Walker - Oracle, Cerberus, Ashimmu
Neemo Beer - Augoror Navy Issue
Rainton Rainz - Talos
Ran Rotsuda - Talos, Brutix Navy Issue
Savannah Tokila - Hurricane
Sone Eto
Tolerin Escipion - Scythe
Tori Moliko - Bellicose
Vincemt' Night
Willuw Everquest - Hurricane, Vexor Navy Issue
Zako Maken - Ferox, Caracal, Augoror

Kills and Losses

(21:21:08) J211936
Oracle -138.69m
Oracle -137.08m
Oracle -94.49m
Cyclone +67.98m
Dominix +264.49m
Sabre +90.17m
Scythe -22.5m
Ferox -73.28m
Talos -116.15m
Bellicose -26.03m
Talos -126.5m
Ferox -67.22m
Cerberus -374.07m
Talos -125.16m
Stabber -34.26m
Scythe -20.91m
Scythe -21.74m
Ferox -69.57m
Scythe -21.11m
Hurricane -73.38m
Caracal -31.25m

(22:22:05) J211936
Anathema -86.17m
Ashimmu -122.06m
Vexor Navy Issue -108.24m
Ashimmu -119.98m
Brutix Navy Issue -224.07m
Capsule -0.01m
Augoror Navy Issue -83.57m
Capsule -0.01m
Augoror -35.45m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 422,639,943.3
ISK Lost: 2,352,986,609.67
ISK Delta: -1,930,346,666.37
Efficiency: 15.227%

Overall evaluation


I feel bad for the 8 LA ships we lost, because that was some bad calls by me. (should’ve waited for a proper at 0 warp in, or better: fight on a hole that isn’t highsec, ie, bacon) the bubbles that were dropped by the sabre when I tried to do that were very effective, even if tuskers said they didn’t properly capitalize on it.

The rest with the reshipping in the LS fight I think was fine, I was talking to them just now on discord, and they really were sweating at times and we were sooooo close to getting that shiny vargur killmail.

We do need to work on our piloting tho, they said only me, and the caracal, which according to zkill would be Zako, were actually pulling away when they were getting shot at, so I guess to the rest: when you get shot in LS, you generally try to pull away, and mitigate damage, and not get closer so that they can apply more webs and or scrams. (granted, I did once get caught by the neuts, which shut off my tank where I had trouble recovering (but thanks to logi, I survived! good job!)

They also said that logi should’ve went with range scripts, or drop the eccm scripts, as there was damping on grid, and not too much ecm, (although I don’t fully feel qualified about commenting on this, as this was not my focus to check how many ec drones there were)

We also need to work a bit on our positioning in general in LS, LS is a doctrine that needs each person to fly more or less individually, and yet in cohesion to the rest of the fleet, it’s hard to call those kinds of movements as an fc, as left and right etc. generally mean relatively little in the heat of the fight etc., I would appreciate some feedback on how one can properly direct the direction of the whole fleet, without anchoring (which you shouldn’t do in LS anyways) and each pilot having a sort of sense of what the rest of the fleet is doing.

And maybe I should’ve tried to extract from that LS fight after a bit, because I remember hearing that people were saying that they were dying, some were podded and some were going to reship, possibly to reengage as a cohesive unit? but then again, looking back at it, and with talking to tuskers post fight, they were saying that there were some close calls during that time, so idk.


The time we caught the vargur in the null site was actually one of the times we were so close to breaking it, had I stayed on it and called heat, and not went for the rest of the fleet, as it was landing (although, as tuskers agreed, without me knowing that the vargur was breaking, it was still a good call, because otherwise they could shoot at us with impunity
but yea, eventually I lost track of our strength during the relocation and the reshipping process in general

Because by that point, I was still assuming that the vargur could tank us, and would just baittank us, where I thought we had a better chance of breaking something not as tanky
they also liked that we didn’t use the structures to just bash them, tbh in that moment I had forgotten structures had guns, but I guess one can call that "honor" which I guess is nice, because that was the one thing where they said they’d have left immediately, which honestly, doesn’t sound very fun for either side

[Zako Maken]

I lost my scanning alt's anathema. Frell was in squad command and FC was in wing. I was combat scanning and warping, but forgot to exempt from fleet warp. Got wing warped, decloaked, and killed before I even realized what happened. Lesson learned.

[Laethe Fooswa]

I've heard a bit about this from both sides and I'm honestly sad I missed it. Damn you eutz... damn you to hell.

I hope everyone is taking these kind of engagements as learning opportunities... I know Tuskers is looking at it as teaching engagements. Everytime I hear about something like this people always say "we should really have a teaching wing" or "we need to find new ways to teach newbros".

I'm really happy to hear Sav talked to Tuskers afterwards and got feedback on the engagement. Those nerds probably analyzed every kill and are honestly really easy to talk to. The vargur pilot specifically had a fantastic time and would have been just as thrilled if you had broken him. I think you would have made him proud rather than salty.

So... in reading this, I'm seeing one commonality pop up and that is the difficulty of flying Light Shield. From my time in WHC I would say Light Shield is the most intimidating doctrine to call as an FC and has the most variety of use-cases. Sav making a point that individual pilots needs to behave more independently in light shield is somewhat accurate, but as an FC you can make general calls about movement... for example:

Land on grid at 50km and as you are warping in, already have an idea of how you want your fleet to move. "When we land guys, align back to bacon, mwd on and burn" It gets people moving immediately in the same direction.

Secondly, as an FC I've found, especially in a doctrine like Light Shield, where positional awareness is the name of the game, worrying about what everyone else is doing more than what you are doing is kind of your responsibility. Your role is to be watching the whole grid and seeing people get out of position and help them. ie: "Ana'Ander, you legit scoundrel, you're about to get tackled, get back over by us, your not in a ramjag right now."

And lastly... re-shipping and feeding. Okay so... you get in a fight and start welping but you WANT to keep fighting. So you re-ship and undock unorganized and feed feed feed. THIS is such a common problem with people at ALL levels of ALL space. We do it in Ehefkae also and afterwards we say... WTF WERE WE THINKING. So how do you handle this? How do you make sure your opponent knows that you want to keep fighting, but take some time to get your sh*t together a bit?

Well first, changing doctrine and forcing the enemy to adjust to your new tactics if THEY want to keep fighting is always a good one. If you have just welped 80% of your fleet, you've made your contributions to Bob's will on this BR. It's time to turn the risk/reward balance in the opposite direction. No shame is saying... let's reship into light armor and go hole-tank for a round and see if they want to keep playing.

Secondly, if you need to delay and take some time to re-form proper, or even evaluate what you have after some bathroom breaks, undock a couple things and hang out on the tether. You're telling the enemy "hey, we still want to play, but Drake needs to take a poop". Wormholers will wait for content if they think there is more explosions to come.

And finally but most importantly... stay calm and make adjustments. Changing up the tactics, even if the new tactic is not optimal, can be very effective. You are putting the onus on the enemy to also adjust, and they may not be as successful as they were in the previous round. If you continue to do what you were previously doing, the enemy can also continue to behave the same way... force them to adjust to you. Even if that means undocking 5 ramjags for a round and being complete cancer.

Anyways... again, wish I was there, honestly... on either side
Hope to see you round j-space.

[Willuw Everquest]

As Savannah (the FC) is busy IRL, I'm just running the AAR too and then posting what she said in slack.

Roam members (18)

Spoiler

Affra - Talos
Ana'ander Lamora - Oracle, Ferox, Stabber, Ashimmu
Aren Dar - Scythe
DonBasuno Ichosira - Ferox
Drake Shea - Oracle, Scythe
Frell Maken - Anathema
Hannah Onasi
Mikus Walker - Oracle, Cerberus, Ashimmu
Neemo Beer - Augoror Navy Issue
Rainton Rainz - Talos
Ran Rotsuda - Talos, Brutix Navy Issue
Savannah Tokila - Hurricane
Sone Eto
Tolerin Escipion - Scythe
Tori Moliko - Bellicose
Vincemt' Night
Willuw Everquest - Hurricane, Vexor Navy Issue
Zako Maken - Ferox, Caracal, Augoror

Kills and Losses

(21:21:08) J211936
Oracle -138.69m
Oracle -137.08m
Oracle -94.49m
Cyclone +67.98m
Dominix +264.49m
Sabre +90.17m
Scythe -22.5m
Ferox -73.28m
Talos -116.15m
Bellicose -26.03m
Talos -126.5m
Ferox -67.22m
Cerberus -374.07m
Talos -125.16m
Stabber -34.26m
Scythe -20.91m
Scythe -21.74m
Ferox -69.57m
Scythe -21.11m
Hurricane -73.38m
Caracal -31.25m

(22:22:05) J211936
Anathema -86.17m
Ashimmu -122.06m
Vexor Navy Issue -108.24m
Ashimmu -119.98m
Brutix Navy Issue -224.07m
Capsule -0.01m
Augoror Navy Issue -83.57m
Capsule -0.01m
Augoror -35.45m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 422,639,943.3
ISK Lost: 2,352,986,609.67
ISK Delta: -1,930,346,666.37
Efficiency: 15.227%

Overall evaluation


I feel bad for the 8 LA ships we lost, because that was some bad calls by me. (should’ve waited for a proper at 0 warp in, or better: fight on a hole that isn’t highsec, ie, bacon) the bubbles that were dropped by the sabre when I tried to do that were very effective, even if tuskers said they didn’t properly capitalize on it.

The rest with the reshipping in the LS fight I think was fine, I was talking to them just now on discord, and they really were sweating at times and we were sooooo close to getting that shiny vargur killmail.

We do need to work on our piloting tho, they said only me, and the caracal, which according to zkill would be Zako, were actually pulling away when they were getting shot at, so I guess to the rest: when you get shot in LS, you generally try to pull away, and mitigate damage, and not get closer so that they can apply more webs and or scrams. (granted, I did once get caught by the neuts, which shut off my tank where I had trouble recovering (but thanks to logi, I survived! good job!)

They also said that logi should’ve went with range scripts, or drop the eccm scripts, as there was damping on grid, and not too much ecm, (although I don’t fully feel qualified about commenting on this, as this was not my focus to check how many ec drones there were)

We also need to work a bit on our positioning in general in LS, LS is a doctrine that needs each person to fly more or less individually, and yet in cohesion to the rest of the fleet, it’s hard to call those kinds of movements as an fc, as left and right etc. generally mean relatively little in the heat of the fight etc., I would appreciate some feedback on how one can properly direct the direction of the whole fleet, without anchoring (which you shouldn’t do in LS anyways) and each pilot having a sort of sense of what the rest of the fleet is doing.

And maybe I should’ve tried to extract from that LS fight after a bit, because I remember hearing that people were saying that they were dying, some were podded and some were going to reship, possibly to reengage as a cohesive unit? but then again, looking back at it, and with talking to tuskers post fight, they were saying that there were some close calls during that time, so idk.


The time we caught the vargur in the null site was actually one of the times we were so close to breaking it, had I stayed on it and called heat, and not went for the rest of the fleet, as it was landing (although, as tuskers agreed, without me knowing that the vargur was breaking, it was still a good call, because otherwise they could shoot at us with impunity
but yea, eventually I lost track of our strength during the relocation and the reshipping process in general

Because by that point, I was still assuming that the vargur could tank us, and would just baittank us, where I thought we had a better chance of breaking something not as tanky
they also liked that we didn’t use the structures to just bash them, tbh in that moment I had forgotten structures had guns, but I guess one can call that "honor" which I guess is nice, because that was the one thing where they said they’d have left immediately, which honestly, doesn’t sound very fun for either side

Please take this question as coming from a new player and eager to learn; in LS if the ranges are similar - why not anchor up on the FC if he/she is in a DPS ship that way the FC controls the ranging? I don't remember if we anchored on the FC or not, but I don't think we did...from a learning perspective why is that?

[Savannah Tokila]

Please take this question as coming from a new player and eager to learn; in LS if the ranges are similar - why not anchor up on the FC if he/she is in a DPS ship that way the FC controls the ranging? I don't remember if we anchored on the FC or not, but I don't think we did...from a learning perspective why is that?

was answered on comms some time ago, and was cleared up wiht more LS fleets i think, but the essense of the reason is, that LS has ships that have various optimal ranges, some are supposed to stay closer to the enemy, ie. antitackle, and the feroxes, n stuff, whereas the oracle is supposed to be a long range ship, behind our lines, being able to shoot with mostly impunity, and then there is logi as well, so that means LS is usually more spread out than LA for example, and because of that, anchoring doesnt work conceptually with the whole fleet,